Author Topic: Premarital Sex  (Read 730 times)

Babylon

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Premarital Sex
« on: November 13, 2017, 11:57:14 PM »
Just to let everyone know, if you're not serious about discussing this topic, because I understand it's a very controversial one, then you can leave. And if you're going to throw out nonsensical comments I'm going to ignore you. And don't bother saying, "Oh, you're just trying to find an excuse to fulfill your desire" or something along those lines. I'm going to take an objective approach to this, and not try to fulfill my desire. Now, I personally believe that premarital sex (heterosexual sex will be the main focus here) according to the Quran is not a sin. I believe that premarital sex is not preferred, but it's not "forbidden". If you take a look in the Quran, God makes some certain foods clearly forbidden, as God states, "Forbidden to you are..." and etc. The same goes for the females you can and cannot marry, as God says, "Forbidden to you are your mothers, ..." and etc. I'm pretty sure God knew this topic of sex before marriage would be a very important topic but He doesn't go out of his way to say sex before marriage is forbidden. In fact, nowhere in the Quran is sex only exclusive to marriage. Here is a link to another post of somebody suggesting that sex is not exclusive to marriage, and is not forbidden in general, and does this using sound logic and reasoning from the Quran: (https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9599777.0). Now at this point you might be thinking about the word "zina" or "adultery". As God does say in the Quran, "Go not near adultery" or as the Arabic term for adultery used is "zina". I'm going to come back to this word in another thread. One reason I believe sex before marriage is lawful is because it's natural. If a man and a woman see each other, let's say in class, and they feel sexually attracted to each other and start to flirt, that's natural. Afterward if they have sex, that's also natural. Looking at this from an evolutionary perspective, which is compatible with the Quran, men have a tendency to look for multiple healthy (attractive) females and mate with them. This is due to the inherent need to reproduce, which is another reason why men fantasize and love to indulge in sex with more than one female at a time, also known as threesomes. I personally don't believe that God would force us or use fear to compel us to deny something that is very natural, just like the immediate need to drink water when you're thirsty. And yes, there is the issue of a woman bearing a child, so what happens in terms of the man - this I will discuss in my next post. I think this post is quite big enough so I'm going to stop here and talk about the meaning of the word "adultery/zina" in my next post.

huruf

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Re: Premarital Sex
« Reply #1 on: November 14, 2017, 12:55:42 AM »
Sex, by definition is marital, that is, it is sex that defines marriage. Marriage without sex does not exist. It would be friendship or whatever. Teherefore sex cannot be premarital or posmarital, it is the sex that makes something marital. Children do nto come without sex and the reason for marriage is precisely the providing of a nourishing environment for offspring. The divorce between sex and marriage is what gives rise to a lot of sociological problems and also what makes one wonder why on earth oppose homosexual marriage if you still uphold that it is not sex that makes marriage.

And commitment it is a nice word and a nice concept, but regardless of how commited anyone would find it convenient to be or not to be, what is certain is that children may come "commitment or not", therefore sex without commitment is in fact what is names as zina, therefore it is the trivialisation of sex and separating it from iots commitment what is zina. Marriage is the mithaq ghalith of which it is spoken in 4.21, and that is mariage, sex is marriage and its trivilisation is its perversion, that is, zina.

Salaam

reel

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Re: Premarital Sex
« Reply #2 on: November 14, 2017, 04:55:11 AM »
Quote
One reason I believe sex before marriage is lawful is because it's natural. If a man and a woman see each other, let's say in class, and they feel sexually attracted to each other and start to flirt, that's natural. Afterward if they have sex, that's also natural.

Is rape natural also?

Why marry then?


Quote
Looking at this from an evolutionary perspective, which is compatible with the Quran, men have a tendency to look for multiple healthy (attractive) females and mate with them. This is due to the inherent need to reproduce, which is another reason why men fantasize and love to indulge in sex with more than one female at a time, also known as threesomes. 

Dude, this was debunked long time ago by the evolution researchers.

By the way, being a Quran follower means thinking with the head instead of acting on what seems natural.
"I fear that nothing will lead me to hell more than ḥadīth"-Hadith collector: Shu'ba Ibn al-Ḥajjāj

Mist

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Re: Premarital Sex
« Reply #3 on: November 14, 2017, 05:41:31 AM »
You'll see people here try to disprove this subject by inserting their cultural experiences, don't fret about their dilemmas.

Most will say Zina means Adultery and Fornication, and I will repeat my logical input on the matter by saying:
Zina can't apply to Adultery and Fornication, It's one or the other. That's like me saying MMK (< traditional "right hands possess" verses) applies to oaths and slaves.

I'll tell you one of the reasons why they hold this view of Zina meaning Adultery and Fornication.  It's because Fa-Ha-Shin (Fahisha) isn't included in verse 2, chapter 24, and that frustrates them. Only Zina is mentioned.

Get this, a user named 'good logic' asked this question recently in another thread - "What prevents people from getting as many girlfriends /boyfriends when married?"..when married..when married.. You'd be cheating on your marriage partner.. Adultery, smh.

Is rape natural also?

Why marry then?
Where's the correlation with rape and premarital sex? Don't even answer that.
What did the OP say about throwing nonsensical comments? smh.

reel, the woman who covertly advocates rape even though it's a wicked act. Oh hey, I can throw nonsensical comments too.
Suggesting rape to make the OP look stupid, are you even a true believer of God's message..

Dude, this was debunked long time ago by the evolution researchers.

By the way, being a Quran follower meanings thinking with the head instead of acting on what seems natural.
Who are these evolution researchers that you praise?

good logic

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Re: Premarital Sex
« Reply #4 on: November 14, 2017, 06:10:18 AM »
Thank you Mist.
Let us give the whole post here:
Easy steps for me to look at:
1- Define marriage is it "Nikah" in Arabic?

2- Define "Tamassuhunna" is it touching women sexually?

3-33:49 says: "Idha Nakahtum" (When you marry)... Min kabli an Tamassuhunna...( Before you touch them)...
i.e Marriage comes before "Tamassuhunna".

Are you allowed "Tamassuhunna " before marriage?

Let us carry on:
4-  4:25..."Bidhni Ahlihinna"(With permission from their folk-Family_....
So you ask permission from the family to have sex before marriage?

Are people saying it is OK to have sex before marriage according to Qoran?i.e Qoran is OK about it?
Are people saying "Marriage" as an institution is not for them,but they prefer to just commit to a girlfriend/boyfriend (Make an oath to stay with them loyally-Similar to marriage) and they have sex with them ?
Or are people saying it is OK to keep trying girlfriends/boyfriends including sleeping with them to see if they are compatible?
Or are people saying just go out with  girlfriends/boyfriends and have sex with them?
I think Qoran is clear to only have sex with a spouse/s or someone you are committed to by oath.

Let us leave Qoran for a minute and look at this argument:
So sex with a girlfriend/boyfriend before marriage is allowed? Then these questions will arise:
1-At what age would you start having girlfriend /boyfriend?
2- Are you living with parents/guardians?
3-Why bother with marriage and seeking permissions and staying with one partner?
4-What prevents people from getting as many girlfriends /boyfriends when married?
5- What is the use of any rule that prevents diseases and social oppression(rapes..etc)?
6- Would you allow your daughters/sisters/sons/brothers to have sex with people they meet ?
7-What prevents people taking advantage of others especially men since women have consequences of getting pregnant?
Of course there are many other disadvantages and questions to be asked.

Ya,,Qoran leaves the freedom to choose  and people are free to do as they please. However Qoran instructs us to "Ihfadu Furujakum".
What is the purpose of premarital sex? And with who? Does one not want to get married? Or does one want to just have sex?...etc.
Define properly what you mean by "premarital sex".
GOD bless.
Peace.
TOTAL LOYALTY TO GOD ALONE.   IN GOD I TRUST

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Cerberus

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Re: Premarital Sex
« Reply #5 on: November 14, 2017, 08:36:50 AM »
Logically you only have sex to reproduce. It is a thoughtful act....Logically....

And righteousness is about logic and soundness of actions. nothing else.

You are supposed to be careful of what comes to you as "natural" specially since you are warned in Quran that "satan will suggest you to you ..." ," satan only want to misguide you....".

reel

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Re: Premarital Sex
« Reply #6 on: November 14, 2017, 11:00:18 AM »
 
Quote
Where's the correlation with rape and premarital sex? Don't even answer that.
What did the OP say about throwing nonsensical comments? smh.

I will have to answer dude. I am in healthcare and I frequently come across people struggling with the dilemma of what is rape and what is premarital consensual sex. One study I came across showed almost 75% of the girls said they gave up their virginity to keep their boyfriends. In brief, they were emotionally blackmailed and that actually is rape. On the other hand, men often can't tell whether they were raping or actually having agreed sex.

Quote
reel, the woman who covertly advocates rape even though it's a wicked act.
Evidence please.
Quote
Oh hey, I can throw nonsensical comments too.
Suggesting rape to make the OP look stupid,..
Wow, thanks for the conclusion. Actually, even I didn’t know that my question makes him look a like stupid. I am sure he didn’t  see it that way either.
It is interesting that this is what you assumed.
There were questions. Why you did not answer them? How does saying this is stupid and that is nonsense a refutation?
 
Quote
are you even a true believer of God's message,..
Not looking affective to my previous  reply.
But I am interested to know something. Why when talking in support of sex you never bring up the ones with whom you want to do it? I am talking about women.

Quote
Who are these evolution researchers that you praise? ,..

See below.

Quote
Fling or ring? Men's mating preferences not hard wired: study
From scientific studies to sitcoms, society portrays men as wired to prefer sexual flings and spurn commitment, and evolution wanted it that way.

In a study published on Tuesday, anthropologists present evidence that male promiscuity is not a human universal wired into the brain by evolution. Instead, mating strategies are flexible, responding to circumstances such as gender ratios.

In short, when women are scarce, men prefer long-term committed relationships, said Ryan Schacht of the University of Utah, who led the study published in Royal Society Open Science. And women, contrary to stereotype, can be just as interested in one-night stands.
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-science-mating/fling-or-ring-mens-mating-preferences-not-hard-wired-study-idUSKBN0KN00R20150114

Quote
Men Have Not Evolved to 'Sow Their Seed Widely'
There’s a myth perpetuating in our society that men are “naturally” more promiscuous than women. One of the reasons given for this is that men have evolved to “sow their seed widely” so as to have more children and therefore ensure the continuity of their genes.

I'm never sure whether to pull my hair out in frustration or laugh at the ludicrousness of such as suggestion, which I hear so often, even from intelligent thoughtful people.

The fact is that the “sow seed widely” form of reproduction is generally only practiced by the lower orders of animals, such as amphibians and fish and coral. In these species the female lays huge quantities of eggs, which hatch into offspring, most of which don’t survive until reproductive age. The males conversely, have to spread huge amounts of sperm around, to catch the widely scattered eggs.

As you go further up the complexity of the animal kingdom you find that there is less and less spreading of seed by the males as the females give birth to increasingly dependent young. By the time you get to humans at the top of the complexity scale and at the extreme end of the infant nurturing scale, you get offspring that are so useless they take years of intense looking after before they are capable of fending for themselves and hopefully living to reproductive age.

The reason that human infants are so helpless in the beginning is that they have such huge brains that they have really big heads, and the baby has to be born before its head gets so big that it can’t get out of the womb through the birth canal. So babies are born when their large brains are still relatively undeveloped. They require years of care until their brains have developed to a point where they can fend for themselves (around seven years of age).

Now, given that there were no single mother benefits in prehistoric days, it would have been virtually impossible for a woman to raise children on her own. The human race would not have become as successful as it has if the men were wandering around impregnating women randomly and leaving them to fend for themselves.

No, rather, both parents were required to work together to provide for themselves and their family. In fact, the whole group would have helped in child rearing. When you look at hunter-gatherer societies it’s very much the whole tribe looking after the children, because the tribe needed the children to survive in order for the tribe to survive. Humans are a very cooperative bunch. We've had to be. It’s our ability to cooperate that has enabled us to become so successful as a species - especially given our pathetically useless young!

The result is that humans have evolved (or been designed) to have frequent and highly pleasurable sex so that the parents can feel good about staying together as they need to stay together for the sake of the children. If sex was just about reproduction then women would only be attractive to men when they were ovulating, and there would be no need for either sex to have enjoyable sex (as is the case with almost all other species).

All of which doesn’t deny that there are still highly promiscuous men. The point is though, that they can’t use the “sowing the seed” theory as their excuse! http://www.jacquelinehellyer.com/lovelife_blog/men-have-not-evolved-to-sow-their-seed-widely




Logically you only have sex to reproduce. It is a thoughtful act....Logically....

Oh God, Cerberus. there is more to it than that  :D It is truly worth the wait. I feel bad for those who were forced to change their track.



"I fear that nothing will lead me to hell more than ḥadīth"-Hadith collector: Shu'ba Ibn al-Ḥajjāj

huruf

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Re: Premarital Sex
« Reply #7 on: November 14, 2017, 12:00:02 PM »
I answer within thw quote in red:


Thank you Mist.
Let us give the whole post here:
Easy steps for me to look at:
1- Define marriage is it "Nikah" in Arabic?


I used not to question (it did not occur to me) that nikaH means marriage. I do not think so any more. Nikah might be wedding, might be nuptial agreement, might mean agreed conditions of marriagee, but it is not the marriage. I recall again the usage of Ancient Egypt. It is well known that they did have marriage, but they did not have any official act known as marriage. That they took marriage very seriously is borne out by the many illustrations and narrations. They also had divorce, which would be impossible without marriage, and adultery, equally impossible without marriage. But they did not have any act or ceremony acknowledged as marriage. Marriage was the de facto marriage, that is, a condition rather than a ceremony or public record and the determinant fact was sex. No sex, no marriage. Sex, marriage.

In Arabic up to this date no word is constructed as somebody who is married as being mentioned by any derivative of the root n-k-H. Today married is, mutazawwaj, that is "mated". In the Qur'an we have in 33.37  "zawwajnakaha". Other than that, there is no word for married. So I think That

1. The Qur'an merely registers that there are terms and conditions for marriage and that in a society where women were at a great disadvantage it was very important to attest and document the fact of the "real thing" that is, sex, so that women were not cheated or taken advantage of and, that as long as they did not have enough real independence, they were supported by the family and the whole of society for that purpose. The terms and conditions of a marriage and the steps taken to gurantee safety particularly to women are not marriage itself but precautionary measures to avoid misuse of the "real marriage", that is, sex.






2- Define "Tamassuhunna" is it touching women sexually?

3-33:49 says: "Idha Nakahtum" (When you marry)... Min kabli an Tamassuhunna...( Before you touch them)...
i.e Marriage comes before "Tamassuhunna".

Are you allowed "Tamassuhunna " before marriage?

This is already answered in 1- 

"Idha Nakahtum", That is when you have agreed on the terms and conditions of the proposed marriage "Min kabli an Tamassuhunna" before you touch them, that is, before you do marry ...     


For the rest I think it is already answered in 1 and 2.

That is, if you have sex with different people after the first one you are commiting zina unless of course you go through a proper divorce.




Let us carry on:

4-  4:25..."Bidhni Ahlihinna"(With permission from their folk-Family_....
So you ask permission from the family to have sex before marriage?

Are people saying it is OK to have sex before marriage according to Qoran?i.e Qoran is OK about it?
Are people saying "Marriage" as an institution is not for them,but they prefer to just commit to a girlfriend/boyfriend (Make an oath to stay with them loyally-Similar to marriage) and they have sex with them ?
Or are people saying it is OK to keep trying girlfriends/boyfriends including sleeping with them to see if they are compatible?
Or are people saying just go out with  girlfriends/boyfriends and have sex with them?
I think Qoran is clear to only have sex with a spouse/s or someone you are committed to by oath.

Let us leave Qoran for a minute and look at this argument:
So sex with a girlfriend/boyfriend before marriage is allowed? Then these questions will arise:
1-At what age would you start having girlfriend /boyfriend?
2- Are you living with parents/guardians?
3-Why bother with marriage and seeking permissions and staying with one partner?
4-What prevents people from getting as many girlfriends /boyfriends when married?
5- What is the use of any rule that prevents diseases and social oppression(rapes..etc)?
6- Would you allow your daughters/sisters/sons/brothers to have sex with people they meet ?
7-What prevents people taking advantage of others especially men since women have consequences of getting pregnant?
Of course there are many other disadvantages and questions to be asked.

Ya,,Qoran leaves the freedom to choose  and people are free to do as they please. However Qoran instructs us to "Ihfadu Furujakum".
What is the purpose of premarital sex? And with who? Does one not want to get married? Or does one want to just have sex?...etc.
Define properly what you mean by "premarital sex".
GOD bless.
Peace.


Comrox

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Re: Premarital Sex
« Reply #8 on: November 14, 2017, 07:09:58 PM »
I have similar views as huruf on this topic.

Legally and religiously, what begins a marriage is just a ceremony and recognition that gives two people certain rights concerning one another. I see marriage as a socially recognized bond or commitment. It's a healthy, caring partnership where people enter in a contract of sorts. So in my understanding, people in long-term relationships or common-law marriages (where they are not legally married) are married. Again, commitment to one another is key here, as well as others recognizing or validating the relationship. In my view, it can't be a secret and it can't be a fling or one night stand.
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Noon waalqalami

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Re: Premarital Sex
« Reply #9 on: November 14, 2017, 10:57:35 PM »
Most will say Zina means Adultery and Fornication

peace, it's fornication or adultery  ...

fornication
24:3 الزنى al-zani/the fornicator/adulterer لا not ىنكح married الا except زنىه zaniyatan/fornicatress/adulteress او or مشركه mushrikatan/who associate/idolatress...

adultery
24:6 والذىن and the ones ىرمون accusing ازوجهم azwajahum/spouses theirs...