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Religion - A view point from logical point of view

Started by Fusion, December 17, 2014, 10:43:21 AM

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runninglikezebras

Quote from: Samira1234 on December 18, 2014, 12:55:21 PM
@runninglikezebras

So basically any attempt to make a surah like it would be brushed off as plagiarism from other scriptures, or that it is poetical nonsense. Yeah and how many Arabic scriptures from God do we know about? And you defended the earlier fighting verses as being 'nice poetry'.

I think you are completely misunderstanding me.  What earlier fighting verses did I call 'nice poetry'?  I would never call any Quranic verse as mere poetry.  No, I dont just automatically brush it of.  It has to stand up to the challenge and its not a aesthetical literary one like you seem to think it is.   Meaning: provide a surah from human authorship that has similar literary aesthetic qualities.  That does not contradict other surahs that are next to it while still having meaning and possess equal linguistic qualitiy.  The challenge is repeated twice, once it mentions a surah like it.  The other one mentions a quran like it.  This means it's not challenge in style of writing.  So far you are only producing either style experiments or isolated surahs.  That is not the challenge.

Quote from: Samira1234 on December 18, 2014, 12:55:21 PM
I have seen some passages of interpretations of the Quran of similar quality or completely nonsensical as well. Especially verses containing injustice in it. All of it which are radically supported by many Muslims.

If it's calling for injustice it already fails the quality test.

Quote from: Samira1234 on December 18, 2014, 12:55:21 PM
I never mentioned that we need to interlock the Surah with the rest of the Quran. The challenge considered by many Muslims is to produce a Surah similar to the literary excellence of the Quran, if that is considered accurate. If the linguistic style is on par, the challenge is met.

I know you didn't.  But Quran does.  The interlocking is one of the proofs of its superior quality.  How many verses are repeated in different surahs?  How many of them contradict?  Zero.


Quote from: Samira1234 on December 18, 2014, 12:55:21 PM
Check out the below two links of Surahs which were forgeries but created problems among Muslims regarding their authenticity:

http://answering-islam.org/Quran/Miracle/wilaya.html
http://answering-islam.org/Quran/Miracle/nurain.html

Not interested looking at forgeries.  Why would I waste my time on those?  Your point is most likely some were fooled by their aesthetical quality.  Again thats not the challenge.

Quote from: Samira1234 on December 18, 2014, 12:55:21 PM
Here is what Edip wrote on his translation of 2:23 verse, regarding the literary excellence:

"...The most popular position among Muslim scholars is that the miracle of the Quran is its literary excellence. This is, however, an imaginary or false claim, since there is no objective or universal criteria for comparing literary texts and thereby preferring one over the other. The miraculous nature of the Quran or the Quran's claim of divine authorship and its universal appeal cannot be relegated merely to the literary taste of those who know Arabic, which may change subjectively. It is impossible to argue that the Quran is divine by comparing its literary aspects to those of Al-Mutanabbi, Taha Hussain or any other Arabic literary work. Bukhari and Ibn Hanbal, the two so-called authentic hadith collections of Sunnism, tacitly confess the impossibility of distinguishing the Quranic statements from man-made literary works since they narrate a text, which is still uttered by millions of Sunni mushriks in ?bonus? prayers called nawafil. According to their report, Ibn Masud, one of the most prominent comrades of prophet Muhammed, and allegedly one of the most prolific sources of hadith, had included that prayer to his Quran as an independent chapter while expunging the last two chapters. The claim of medieval Sunni and Shiite sources regarding the requirement for two witnesses for each verse to authenticate their divine nature, regardless of the truth-value of the claim, is another acknowledgment of their inability to distinguish a Quranic revelation from fabricated statements via the so-called literary excellence criterion..."

I agree with Edip on that.  I don't see what I'm saying differently?
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runninglikezebras

I feel like we have an agreement on the point that the challenge is not a literary one?  So why are you arguing with me?  I dont get this.
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Samira1234

Then what is the challenge talking about, according to you? The mathematical structure of the Quran?
Inner space is as infinite as outer space.

Where there is life there is hope.

Religion is A box; Spirituality is a golden spiral.

runninglikezebras

1. Non-contradiction in it's entirety.
2. Universal truth it contains throughout all surahs.
3. While being a non-chronological work that was delivered verbally (recited), it does not contain any inconsistency when it deals with a same topic again x number of verses/surahs later.

The experiments at meeting the challenge fail at:

1. They are isolated surahs.  It's not difficult to contradict within one surah.  Anyone can do that.
2. I dont need to explain why those texts fail here as well.  They don't appeal globally as Quran does.
3. The attempts were made on paper, possibly by a collaboration.  Not delivered verbally without a design on paper first.
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runninglikezebras

I would like to elaborate on point 2.  I understand thats not a measurable criterion.  Though it is an objective mechanism in the Quran.  When you are misinterpreting a verse all you need to do is read more verses dealing with the topic and see if your interpretation is still compatible with it.  Quran has a miraculous mechanism of confronting the reader with the misconceptions that originated in their own minds.  This makes it a work that is universally capable of confronting anyone in the world with their own shortcomings and subjective truths.  Even if you are making laws or the president of the United States.  Quran will call you out on what you are doing and there is no hiding it.  Dito for the fabricators of hadith.  This explains the allergic reaction of those who disbelieve when Quran is recited.  No other book possesses that quality.
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runninglikezebras

The criteria differ slightly in the two verses:

2:23 Where the challenge is surah => the challenge is to meet this challenge on the spot, by recitation.

17:88 Where the challenge is Quran => the challenge can be met written, they will still fail.  Even after hundreds of years this challenge has not been met.  Maybe some of us who doubt still need some more time? :)
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runninglikezebras

An addendum to the debate on the verses dealing with fighting and killing.  If you pay attention to the source texts they are clearly speaking about a state of war.  The mistake is to project the labels used in those verses to contexts that don't involve war.   This is one of the reasons I highly object to the fascist 5 types of people article on this websites index http://free-minds.org/5-types-people-quran

These aren't 5 types of people.  They are five type of attitudes that can occur in any type of human.  Eg you can be a polytheist now, Quran is not commanding anyone of the muslims to kill you.  But if you chose to be a polytheist in the time of muhammad when you declared open war against him and God, your life is not safe anymore as God instructs.

Outside the context of war, we are instructed to live and let live concerning anyone regardless of how you categorize them.

There is a real danger within this movement that claims to have the true Islam based on Quran only to discriminate people on standards that only exist in their own minds.  The QRT of Edip Yuskel still contains old hadith (like the homophobic interpretations) and new hadith (code 19).

I'm not optimistic at all.  And this forum makes me frown more often then smile.
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runninglikezebras

Quote from: Fusion on December 17, 2014, 10:43:21 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJrfoWWlYCc#t=683

Please focus on the part (starting from minute 6:00) where he talks about the religion and the their books in particular and the part that every one
claims to have been holding the right book/religion.

My logic tells me that he is not all wrong in his claims or deduction. What is your opinion? Because whether we agree or not
religion plays central role in such atrocities (used directly or indirectly).

Regards


I know Cenk Uygur.  Pay in mind this guy is denying the Turkish committed genocide on armenians in the previous century.  He was also running from the Sunni interpretation of Islam.  He's allergic to faith by any definition and has been traumatized by the consequences of Turkish sectarianism.  He's incapable of distincting religion from sects.  Therefor he's a full blown atheist now.  I think his understanding of Islam is as limited as that of the soldiers in IS.
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good logic

Peace Runninglikezebras.

Please stay optimistic. May be you read/seen this?:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5iaSY4BB-2Q

Just to add more hadiths! or are they?

The second coming is here. Qoran s second coming for this generation and the next ones.
Contrary to common belief of a second coming of a "messenger/mehdi/Jesus...The second coming is Qoran(GOD S message) with the "proof" - Dhikr_( Saad, and the Qoran that contains the proof?!!!!)

GOD bless you.
Peace.
TOTAL LOYALTY TO GOD ALONE.   IN GOD I TRUST
38:65″ Say:? I warn you; There is no other god beside GOD, the One, the Supreme.?
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Samira1234

Hello runninglikezebras,

Quote
An addendum to the debate on the verses dealing with fighting and killing.  If you pay attention to the source texts they are clearly speaking about a state of war.  The mistake is to project the labels used in those verses to contexts that don't involve war.   This is one of the reasons I highly object to the fascist 5 types of people article on this websites index http://free-minds.org/5-types-people-quran

These aren't 5 types of people.  They are five type of attitudes that can occur in any type of human.  Eg you can be a polytheist now, Quran is not commanding anyone of the muslims to kill you.  But if you chose to be a polytheist in the time of muhammad when you declared open war against him and God, your life is not safe anymore as God instructs.

Yeah the verses are dealing with war conditions where the polytheists broke the treaty, such as the Battle of Hunayn. Although I still have issues with the Surah.

I do not understand the excessive use of the words "belief" and "rejection", and some extent of compulsion in religion.

9:23 O you who believe, do not take your fathers nor brothers as allies if they prefer rejection to belief. And whoever of you takes them as such, then these are the wicked.

Calling polytheists as impure:

9:28 O you who believe, the polytheists are impure, so let them not approach the Restricted Temple after this year of theirs; and if you fear poverty, then God will enrich you from His blessings if He wills. God is Knowledgeable, Wise.

These verses can easily be used to also defend the 'Holy Jihad' as is done by many Muslims:

9:38 O you who believe, what is wrong with you when you are told: "Mobilize in the cause of God," you become heavy on the earth. Have you become content with this worldly life over the Hereafter? The enjoyment of this worldly life compared to the Hereafter is nothing.

9:41 March forth in light gear or heavy gear, and strive with your money and lives in the cause of God. That is best if you knew.

9:111 God has purchased from those who acknowledge their very lives and their wealth; that they will have paradise. They fight in the cause of God so they kill and are killed. A promise that is true upon Him in the Torah, the Injeel and the Quran. Whoever fulfills his pledge to God, then have good news of the deal which you concluded with. Such is the supreme success.

Insulting the Nomads:

9:97 The Nomads are the worst in rejection and hypocrisy, and more likely not to know the boundaries of what God has sent down upon His messenger. God is Knower, Wise.

This verse, even if it may try to tell the reader to abstain from making religious leaders as authorities besides God, still it also promotes hatred towards the Jews and the Christians as well:

9:30 The Jews said, "Ezra is God's son," and the Nazarenes said, "The Messiah is God's son." Such is their utterances with their mouths; they imitate the sayings of those who rejected before them. God's curse be on them. How deviated are their minds!

In the verses 9:11, 9:84, 9:99, Edip Yuksel translated the word 'Salah' as support, instead of contact prayer, unlike The Monotheist translation. That should also give hints to us that the word Salah has been misinterpreted elsewhere also, most likely. It doesn't look right that God would be so obsessed with ritual prayers more than things like good behavior or so.

Peace,

Samira
Inner space is as infinite as outer space.

Where there is life there is hope.

Religion is A box; Spirituality is a golden spiral.