4:43 No ablution for women??

[good logic]

Peace.

That is how I understand the verse. 

Other explanations for "Junuban" do not make sense to me.  Because  you  "Purify " from what and how?

God bless .
Peace.

[good logic]

Peace huruf.

I meant to give you the part of [ 4:43] where I got bathe/wash from:

...وَلا جُنُبًا إِلّا عابِرى سَبيلٍ حَتّىٰ تَغتَسِلوا

From the  word " taghtassilu"?

Thanks.
Peace.

[huruf]

But that is the same, you have to wash any way, because before the salaat you must wash, anyway, and I do not see that the washing is different from the washing for the prayer which must be done anyway. In 5.6 there is an imperative wash face, etc., while in 4.46 it says till you wash yourselves. It is almost parallel, you wash before prayers. In the translations they do some joggling to get the traditional canonical law for "purification", but that, as some say, must be judaism, because I cannot see it inthe Qur'an.


Regarding purification, check all the occurrences in Qur'an you will see that purification is not washing, for the purpose of prayers you may wash, but the fact that you purify does not mean that you wash. You do not purify of something but purify for something. If you purify for a certain purpose you must do whatever is necessary for that purpose, it may not be washing and mostly it is not washing. of purifies prophets, doe snot mean that prophets are not pure, but even not being impure they are purifiable because only God is aboslutely pure, I guess.

Purifying has nothing to do with religious ritual. It is something that is done for certain purpose.

Look at 2.228 the one whre they say that women cannot pray with the period. There is a purification but certainly it cannot mean to wash, since what they mean to do is have sex, how are you going to purfy for sex whn you have after to purify for prayers. The have ben caught in their ritualisation of islam in gneeral and of prayers and. lso see that junub comes right after intoxicationw here you do not know what you say, that and by the meaning and smantical connotation of the root and word I thought that most likely it was a mental or animical more than a physical condition, because in both ayas there is having sex with women mentioned apart, it would therefor be a repetition not to mention that there is no hint at all in the whole of Qur'an of junub having anything to do with that at all. It is completely made up. Nice invention, ritual impurity and go and find out what ritual impurity is.

But that is the way how islam, from a simple (opposite of complicated) and straightforward common sense conception of life was turned into ritualist mine field of harams  and so forth.

Salaam

[good logic]

Peace huruf.

Iam not saying "purifying" means wash.

I am saying when it goes with "Junuban" in [5:6], it means wash.

GOD has shown us in [4:43]by using " "faghtassilu". This word clarifies for us it is bathe/wash.

[4:43] and [5:6] have the same subject-Ablution- instructions.

GOD bless you.
Peace.

[huruf]

The washing is provided anyway for anybody that is going to pray and in 4.43 it does say that they should not pray if they are junub but after washing, same as if they are and, intoxicated, it expliciting that they must remember, must not ommit washing, that even in their fogged or distracted mind in order to pray they must wash, wich will help clear the minds too, at least washing or water is used to bring people back tot heir senses and to clear minds when people are tired, particularly mentally tired.

In 5.6 I doubt that it is saying to those junub to wash twice, because they should have already washed by the mere fact that they are going to pray as stated at the start of the aya, and if it reminds in ase of junub, then why use a word which does not mean wash although washing theoretically may be included as a way of purifying. It must be those things which are included in purifying beyond the washing, since they are two different concepts and both are mentionned separate and clearly. In 5.6 and 4.43, if washing is required for prayers, anything that is to do with prayers in that sense will be together with washing. But besides washing there is a purify for the junub state.

The "ritual impurity" thing seems to me made up which, on top of it, if it is not said in what it consists and therefore says nothing. Unless I can see any grounds to believe something better, I do tend to think that it is talking about a mental state, because if it was physical it would indeed require washing, ok, but when purify is added to the washing, I do not think it is a repetition but that there is something more, something that, as said, I think is mental or animical, which also cannot be surprising, because the mental and animal weights very heavily in the ability to pray with real concentration.

Salaam

[GODsubmitter]

Men and women are equal (in rights, et al, & before God of course), but are NOT the same!

Peace

[hafeez kazi]

Peace

O you who have believed, do not approach prayer as long as you are intoxicated (not in full possession of senses)  حَتَّىٰ   until you know what you are saying or in a state of impurity, except travelling on road, حَتَّىٰ until تَغْتَسِلُوا   you have washed (BATHED). And if you are ill or on a journey or one of you comes from the place of relieving himself or you have contacted women and find no water, then seek clean earth and wipe over your faces and your hands [with it]. Indeed, Allah is ever Pardoning and Forgiving. 4:43

Without WADHU we can approach prayer. There is no mention of WADHU and  MAHEEDH in the above verse. If Muslims want to add WADHU and MAHEEDH as prohibitions for SALAT then at their own risk.



They question thee (O Muhammad) concerning الْمَحِيضِ   menstruation. Say: It is أَذًى   a filth/dirt, so let women alone at such times and go not in unto them حَتَّىٰ till they يَطْهُرْنَ   are cleansed. And when they have purified themselves, then go in unto them as Allah hath enjoined upon you. Truly Allah loves those who turn unto Him, and loves those who have a care for cleanness 2:222

by the way WADHU is NOT for SALAT.

Thanks

[huruf]

What about 5.6?

Salaam

[hafeez kazi]

Peace

for 5:6 click below

http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9606811.0

Thanks

[huruf]

I have looked into ocassions int he Qur'an where qawama is used and in those referring to the salaat independent of time of the day it employs qawama I think it really means to do salaat or start to do it. I cannot relzate exclusively to the morning.

Salaam