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Qur'an Verse 4:34 - 'Beat the Wife'? quranverse434

Started by Nabeel, April 04, 2014, 05:32:32 PM

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reel

QuoteAfter studying this verse a bit, my understanding is this is not a general rule for all relations of men and women but in fact its describing a certain variant of male-female relationship in which by choice, agreement or envionment the female is depending on the maintenance of the male. Eg a marriage or relationship in which the man has income and the woman does not.

Exactly that is my point.

Quoteits a mystery to me how this verse sparked a debate about feminism and gender equality.  Its only imposing social justice nothing else.

the debate occurred because I was saying that we don't need feminism, but humanism and that the verse isn't telling men to take care of all women. The two topics weren't fully relying on each other though. My take is that if we want men and women to feel and treat each other equally we need to dissolve the formula of feminism that all men are evil and all women are innocent.Wickedness sees no gender. In the end, it creates laws that damage the position of innocent men. Huruf is a feminist. She believes we do need feminism.
"I fear that nothing will lead me to hell more than ḥadīth"-Hadith collector: Shu'ba Ibn al-Ḥajjāj

runninglikezebras

@reel: I see, I will wisely refrain from meddling into the feminism debate  8)
[url="http://legrandsecretdelislam.com/"]http://legrandsecretdelislam.com/[/url] - [url="http://rootsofislamtruehistory.com/"]http://rootsofislamtruehistory.com/[/url]

reel

QuoteI see, I will wisely refrain from meddling into the feminism debate 

I see the reason :D
"I fear that nothing will lead me to hell more than ḥadīth"-Hadith collector: Shu'ba Ibn al-Ḥajjāj

runninglikezebras

This verse however also protects the males rights in the described agreement.  Imagine the male partner being from home a lot to gather income to support her, while his female partner staying at home and being disloyal or cheating during his absence.  In such scenario this verse empowers the male partner to take measures based on suspicion.   In fact it's a quite remarkable/beautiful verse showing many traits of Qurans completeness and righteousness:


  • protecting both male and female rights
  • preventing the creation of more poverty
  • urging reconciliation and dialogue (peace) over conflict
  • promoting social justice and preventing exploitation in both directions

I'm sure I could expand on this list.  One thing is for sure however: I can't put it as beautiful, concise and condensed as is done in Quran.
[url="http://legrandsecretdelislam.com/"]http://legrandsecretdelislam.com/[/url] - [url="http://rootsofislamtruehistory.com/"]http://rootsofislamtruehistory.com/[/url]

huruf

You are all right, everything God does and says is meant to uphold the male title of primary human being and the woman, wife, as a function of him. His privileges, his overriding importance is to be upheld, everything is subordinate to it. The Qur'an is bound by that.

And still some people wonder why there feminis, more precisely islamic feminism?

I could go on for pages and pages, but I have already left my own tasks for writing here and I cannot afford it now.

But, wakas, the grammar and logic is not on your side and I do remember we discussed this already and you still are not right. Neither the grammar nor the ologic support your "some" interpretation, that is a complete novelty to the Arabic language. A rare item that through all the centuries, through all of the Qur'an, through all written texts og the Arabic language in thos centuries only appears in the TRANSLATION of this 4.34 aya. Ashtounding.

It cannot be for God's sake that something not be as a function of male protagonism and everything else turning around it like satellites.

My best wishes for the continuous improvement of the Arabic language through counterfeiting of the Qur'an.


Salaam


huruf

Just another little thing:

ghaib    is not "absent"

Ghaa'ib     is "absent"

What is written in 4.34 is ghaib, usually trnaslated by "the Unseen", which appears 49 times in the Qur'an.



Salaam

runninglikezebras

Quote from: huruf on September 02, 2014, 03:23:55 AM
You are all right, everything God does and says is meant to uphold the male title of primary human being and the woman, wife, as a function of him. His privileges, his overriding importance is to be upheld, everything is subordinate to it. The Qur'an is bound by that.

And still some people wonder why there feminis, more precisely islamic feminism?

I could go on for pages and pages, but I have already left my own tasks for writing here and I cannot afford it now.

But, wakas, the grammar and logic is not on your side and I do remember we discussed this already and you still are not right. Neither the grammar nor the ologic support your "some" interpretation, that is a complete novelty to the Arabic language. A rare item that through all the centuries, through all of the Qur'an, through all written texts og the Arabic language in thos centuries only appears in the TRANSLATION of this 4.34 aya. Ashtounding.

It cannot be for God's sake that something not be as a function of male protagonism and everything else turning around it like satellites.

My best wishes for the continuous improvement of the Arabic language through counterfeiting of the Qur'an.


Salaam

I dont think you understand.  Let me show you using a female protagonist.  Imagine there is this woman, we'll call her huruf, God has bestowed her with strength and wealth.  Imagine she has a male partner not bestowed with these things.  Huruf shares her wealth with her partner and is the protector of him.  But one day huruf gets suspicious. When she comes home the house smells of a female perfume she doesnt recognize and finds empty wine bottles everywhere.  What can huruf do according to this verse? Answer: huruf can kick him out of her house immediately.  She does not have to give him multiple chances to change his ways.  If that man wants to reconciliate after being kicked out, she  does not have to give him another chance.

This example is perfectly in lign with verse 4:34.  Why is the procedure different for males and females?  The answer is twofold.  First of all a woman can be with child.  It would be unfair to cast woman and child out of their home based only on suspicion.  The child or children are innocent and it would  be very unfair to punish them so abruptly for something outside their control based on suspicion.  Secondly, society (not quran) offers more opportunity for males to find work or sustain themselves.

Peace

Ps: I hope you arent offended for using your name in this example, it was too hard to resist ;)
[url="http://legrandsecretdelislam.com/"]http://legrandsecretdelislam.com/[/url] - [url="http://rootsofislamtruehistory.com/"]http://rootsofislamtruehistory.com/[/url]

Wakas

peace,

Quote from: Wakas on September 01, 2014, 05:39:33 PM
peace huruf,

You did not overstep any mark.

1)
We already discussed the reciprocal argument. See the solid evidence of comparison between 4:32 and 4:34 in my last post on that discussion thread: "them" Vs "you"
http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=12037.100

Do you still deny?


2)
Please provide a translation of 2:226-228 so we can test your theory.


Quote from: hurufBut, wakas, the grammar and logic is not on your side and I do remember we discussed this already and you still are not right. Neither the grammar nor the ologic support your "some" interpretation, that is a complete novelty to the Arabic language.

Can we therefore conclude the following:

4:32 says "some of YOU over others"
4:34 says "some of THEM over others"

Wakas thinks that since The Quran worded the statements differently, it probably means something different, as discussed previously.

Huruf thinks it means the same thing, regardless of different wording.

###

Huruf thinks the word "rijal" and "nisa" are never used to denote "husband" and "wife", respectively.
Wakas asks for a translation of 2:226-228 to test her theory.
Huruf does not reply.


All information in my posts is correct to the best of my knowledge only and thus should not be taken as a fact. One should seek knowledge and verify: 17:36, 20:114, 35:28, 49:6, 58:11. [url="http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/"]My articles[/url]

[url="//www.studyquran.org"]www.studyQuran.org[/url]

huruf

Quote from: Wakas on September 02, 2014, 07:22:50 AM
peace,


Can we therefore conclude the following:

4:32 says "some of YOU over others"
4:34 says "some of THEM over others"

Wakas thinks that since The Quran worded the statements differently, it probably means something different, as discussed previously.

Huruf thinks it means the same thing, regardless of different wording.

###

Huruf thinks the word "rijal" and "nisa" are never used to denote "husband" and "wife", respectively.
Wakas asks for a translation of 2:226-228 to test her theory.
Huruf does not reply.


Stick to original and grammar.

Salaam

Israfeel

The ideological founder of the modern Quranist movement, G. A. Pervez, in his explanation of the Quraan known as Mafhoom-ul-Quraan proposed a new theory and understanding of what is meant by striking the wife when she is consistently disobedient to her husband, as per [4:34]

As per his explanation, if a woman is consistently disobedient to her husband after he has tried to reconcile with her, and then separated from her, despite all of these steps if the woman remains stubborn in her disobedience, what is the next step in disciplining her?

According to G. A. Pervez, the next step is that the Court should give the woman a bodily/physical punishment! He writes:
اور اگر وہ اس پر بھی سرکشی سے باز نہ آئن تو عدالت انہین بدنی سزا دے سکتی ہے 
And if she still doesn't stop her disobedience, then the court has the right to give her a bodily (physical) punishment.

Source: Mafhoom ul Quraan, p. 189, commenting on Surah 4:34

So here we have the father of Quranism (Ghulam Ahmed Pervez of Gurdaspur) basically saying that a husband can have his wife taken to court for being disobedient to him, and the court will then publicly beat or punish the woman physically! What a humiliation that will be for the woman!

These Quranists attack the mainstream Muslims for our interpretation that a husband may privately strike his wife if she is consistently disobedient to him. They have the audacity to attack our position, when the founder and pioneer of their cult, Mr. Pervez, proposed that such women should be publicly beaten by the court!

Below is the original scan page from Mafhoom ul Quraan, page 189


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