Gog and Magog

[si di]

If they are human why there are not called "Al-JAJUJ" and "AL-MAJUJ" i think after "Inna" there had to be an article if it is a Name for Humans.There are exeptions like "وإلى ثمود " but i remember that It can also be read as Il-laa so it has the article within.But i am not an expert in the arab language someone has to check this who had knogledge in the language.

I would like to belive the previous scriptures,to inform us about "GOG and MAGOG" to be Humans but ihave doubts especially when it Comes to part of the trumpet of doomsday.

[Jafar]

If they are human why there are not called "Al-JAJUJ" and "AL-MAJUJ" i think after "Inna" there had to be an article if it is a Name for Humans.There are exeptions like "وإلى ثمود " but i remember that It can also be read as Il-laa so it has the article within.But i am not an expert in the arab language someone has to check this who had knogledge in the language.

I would like to belive the previous scriptures,to inform us about "GOG and MAGOG" to be Humans but ihave doubts especially when it Comes to part of the trumpet of doomsday.

Because it's a loan word from neighboring language? (Hebrew / Aramaic)
The AL and Non-Al is like using "THE" and not using "THE" in English.

And what does it relate to 'trumpet of doomsday'?
Are you refering to the 'book of revelation' version of the story?

Found an interesting reference about "Gokturk".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6kt%C3%BCrks

And their 'kingdom'.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uyghur_Khaganate

Nonetheless, it's important to highlight the amount of atrocities when the "Nomadic Central Asian" invaded, in multiple waves, the entire world in 9-14th century. The thousand kilometers of fortification / walls that was built to contain them by the Chinese and Sassanid empire did break during that time.

With over 100 million death (one third of the total human population at the time), the atrocities has set the 'high standard' and a historical world record in term of massive orgies of killing and plundering that still cannot be matched even by the Nazis + Japanese in World War II.

Especially for middle east, their invasion has caused nearly 80% reduction in total human population within the area of today's Iran, Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Palestine/Israel, Jordan, Anatolia/Turkey, Armenia, and Georgia.

And during the later stage, the "Nomadic Central Asian" adopted and leveraged the "Religion of Islam" and spread the atrocities further towards Afghanistan, Pakistan, India (Moghul Empires) while spreading the "Religion of Islam" towards the before mentioned territories.

It's either the so-called 'holy scriptures' missed to prophesies the coming of the "Central Asian Nomad Great Atrocities" or the "Gog Magog" prophecy was indeed referring to their invasion.

[Scimitar]

Assalaam alaikum, first post here.

I've been very interested in the subject of Dhul Qarnayn and Ya'jooj wa Ma'jooj for years now, and found your forum on a google search. Hence I joined.

This topic hasn't been posted in for over 30 days so I hope you don't mind this necrobump of the thread. I didn't want to start a new topic when all I am aiming at contributing is the following:

Al Kahf ayah 96:

Bring me sheets of iron" - until, when he had leveled [them] between the two mountain walls, he said, "Blow [with bellows]," until when he had made it [like] fire, he said, "Bring me, that I may pour over it Qhitre."

I've been looking into the word Qhitre (commonly interpreted as molten copper or lead by the commentators) and found the following information after conducting some geological study into the myths behind metals in the ancient world. During this process, I found something called Orichalcium, and thought that this information is interesting enough to put into the Gog Magog section here...

Ok, onto Orichalcium:

Orichalcum or aurichalcum is a metal mentioned in several ancient writings, including a story of Atlantis in the Critias dialogue, recorded by Plato. According to Critias (460 ? 403 BC), orichalcum was considered second only to gold in value, and was found and mined in many parts of Atlantis in ancient times. By the time of Critias, however, orichalcum was known only by name.

Orichalcum may have been one type of bronze or brass, or possibly some other metal alloy. In 2015, metal ingots were found in an ancient shipwreck in Gela (Sicily), which were made of an alloy primarily consisting of copper and zinc, i.e. a form of brass.

Joseph Needham (a British scientist, historian and sinologist known for his scientific research and writing on the history of Chinese science) notes that the 18th century Bishop Richard Watson, a professor of chemistry, wrote that there was an ancient idea that there were "two sorts of brass or orichalcum". Needham also suggests that the Greeks may not have known how orichalcum was made, and that they might even have had an imitation of the original.

Orichalcum is first mentioned in the 7th century BC by Hesiod, and in the Homeric hymn dedicated to Aphrodite, dated to the 630s.

According to the Critias by Plato, the three outer walls of the Temple to Poseidon and Cleito on Atlantis were clad respectively with brass, tin, and the third outer wall, which encompassed the whole citadel, "flashed with the red light of orichalcum". The interior walls, pillars and floors of the temple were completely covered in orichalcum, and the roof was variegated with gold, silver, and orichalcum. In the center of the temple stood a pillar of orichalcum, on which the laws of Poseidon and records of the first son princes of Poseidon were inscribed. (Crit. 116?119)

Orichalcum is also mentioned in the Antiquities of the Jews - Book VIII, sect. 88 by Josephus, who stated that the vessels in the Temple of Solomon were made of orichalcum (or a bronze that was like gold in beauty). Pliny the Elder points out that the metal had lost currency due to the mines being exhausted. Pseudo-Aristotle in De mirabilibus auscultationibus describes orichalcum as a shining metal obtained during the smelting of copper with the addition of "calmia" (zinc oxide), a kind of earth formerly found on the shores of the Black Sea.

source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orichalcum

_ _ _

Some very interesting points here:

1) Orichalcium is a known ancient metallic alloy likened to copper or bronze.

2) Orichalcum is first mentioned in the 7th century BC by Hesiod. This predates Cyrus the Persian by a century.

3) Joseph Needham who was a British Scientist, Historian and Sinologist - known for his research into Chinese Science - noted that 18th century Bishop Richard Watson, a professor of chemistry, wrote that there was an ancient idea that there were "two sorts of bronze or orichalcium".

4) According to the Critias by Plato, the third outer wall (of the temple of Poseidon), which encompassed the whole citadel, "flashed with the red light of orichalcum". Why is this important?

Imam Al-Bukhari transmitted in his Sahih the following Hadith: A man told the Prophet (S.A.W.S) that he had seen the dam of Gog and Magog. The Prophet (S.A.W.S) asked: ?How did you find it?? The man said: ?I found it like Al-Burd Al-Muhabbar (striped garments).? The Prophet (S.A.W.S) said: ?You have seen it.?

In Ibn Jarir?s exegesis of the Qur?an, it was reported by Qatadah that when the man told the Prophet (S.A.W.S) that he had seen the dam of Gog and Magog and was asked to describe it, he said: ?It looked like striped garments, with red and black stripes.? The Prophet (S.A.W.S) said: ?You have seen it.?

5) Orichalcum is also mentioned in the Antiquities of the Jews - Book VIII, sect. 88 by Josephus. The Jews were aware of this metallic alloy from their own official histories (the antiquities of the Jews by Josephus).

6) Pseudo-Aristotle in De mirabilibus auscultationibus describes orichalcum as a shining metal obtained during the smelting of copper with the addition of "calmia" (zinc oxide), a kind of earth formerly found on the shores of the Black Sea. Indicating that the raw metallic material is found near sea shores in mountainous areas. This is one very interesting development, as I have always wondered what QHITRE was, and no classical exegetes have really satisified my curiosity thus far. The jump into geology is something i do from time to time in order to better understand the terra fauna of areas I am studying. And so, this resulted in this instance, in the finding of Orichalcium... something very intriguing and may well be the Qhitre of the Quran.

Copper and Calmia = Qhitre? that's the thought I'm playing with atm.

And Allah knows best.

Scimi