The One Who's Not God

[Meteora]

^And isn't that what Servant of the Light uses in its argument? I think that site was just pointing out Allah wasn't a personification, and yes, mainstream Islam does have the same view of God as does Judaism and Christianity, regarding what he is, not necessarily what he desires of course. Islam believes in the "authentic" pagan hadiths of Allah being in "man's image", which is anti-Quran, so what Abdun Nur was saying was right.

[morninglight]

Peace to all.

Abdun Nur, none of what follows is meant as personal attack.  I am only stating the obvious about the content of the SOL website.

Beyond absurd, it is incoherent in too many ways to enumerate.  Further, in its ridiculous confabulation about the development of Common Law, it appears to have adopted some bizarre "theories" of the "sovereign citizen" whackos.

Some of its believers have made serious disruptions of discussions in this Forum in which most of us are concerned with taking our guidance from the Quran, rather than rejecting the Quran and our God-given common sense too. 

It says there is to be no government, but it provides for plenty of government -- "administrators," Court personnel, law enforcement.  Labeling all that as "administration" does not make it not a government.

It would provide for "medical care" from a Doctor who rejects the learning of modern Medicine -- and what would be the chance of that Doctor being a Medical Doctor, huh? -- and whose "medical care" would consist of providing vitamin and mineral supplements and having available distilled water and oxygen to administer.  If I recall correctly, it says that in a hypothetical community of one thousand families, that "medical care" would be available to each family for a premium of some twenty ounces of silver a year.  What a great bargain! ... for somebody, but certainly not for any suckers who would go for that.  One can get a daily multivitamin and mineral supplement for less than the cost of a half ounce of silver for a year's supply.  One can get a water distillation device for less than the cost of three ounces of silver; however, since most use of distilled water is for machinery and medicinal solutions, most people never have any reason even to buy a distillation device.  A gallon of distilled water costing less than a gram of silver goes a long, long way in a steam iron. 

I looked at some of the SOL site that was pointed to by a member on a recent thread here to offer explanations of claims that member was asked to clarify.

There was the claim that humans can have no property, that everything in creation belongs to Allah.  That is just another way of stating the obvious fact that when we leave this earthly life, we do not take anything (worldly) with us. 

SOL's system is for people to act as owners of land, watermelons, whatever -- occupying, controlling, using, conveying, etc. -- in short, having all of what are called the incidents of ownership.  Of course any person's ownership of anything is necessarily limited in time.  The rights we call incidents of ownership are what makes what is called ownership.  Did you see on that site so much argument for indefeasible title to land?  Ownership is ownership.

As for the watermelon being exchanged for money or else of value -- SOL indicates that the watermelon is Allah's and is transferred for free, that only the farmer's time and labor are sold.  Yes, the farmer is compensated for time and labor, but if time and labor were the subject of the transaction, the farmer would be hired out to work for another.  Who properly has possession of the watermelon before and who after the transaction?  Who has the right to eat it, give it away, dispose of it, exercise whatever incidents of ownership over the watermelon before and who after the transaction in which it is transferred?  The sale of a watermelon is the sale of a watermelon.  The sale of a watermelon transfers ownership of the watermelon.

There was the claim that there should be no government, that we should live as ancient Britons without government, and we were pointed to the SOL site indicating regulation by government there back to ancient times.  Government is government.

There was the claim that there is to be no taxation.  SOL calls for compulsory contributions to (assessments for) a community "pot" for community purposes.  That would be taxation.  That would be taxation by a governmental entity.

It is truly amazing to me that anyone can eat up such incoherence as SOL writes.

[...]

Grasshopper, only in SOL's alternate reality are those things supposed to be free.  You might notice also that in SOLalaland purchases and sales of real estate and other property (such as the watermelon) are assumed, and that such things as utility services are to be available only for payment of user fees.  Reality check -- Why do you suppose SOL is not giving you your living and every comfort you desire?  Why are you not giving the other inhabitants of the world their livings and every comfort they desire?  Please explain your theory that you are so entitled and not so obligated -- and that you should not even be responsible to provide for your own wants?

.
[...]

Did God make you and/or SOL manager of the Universe outside SOL's alternate reality?  Apparently the rest of this Universe missed the memo on that.  Did God tell you that committing theft and/or any other lawlessness would be excusable for the reason that somewhere someone might be doing something not to your liking? 

[...]

Let us be reasonable and interpret the Quran.  Clearly, it assumes private property, not to be stolen, and uneven distribution of wealth.  Its guidance covers such things as participation in ordinary commerce; honoring contractual commitments; forgiveness of indebtedness in some cases; fair dealing with others, as in using honest measurements in the trading (sales/purchases) of goods; spending; sharing with others not so blessed materially; and supporting one's (properly dependent) dependents.  No particular currency is defined and prescribed for us, but that is not necessary to understanding what is meant and that using and participating in some monetary system(s) would necessarily be involved.  Currency varies from time to time and place to place; anything recognized as money functions for those purposes.

[...]

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SOL's first words:  I am not a baby, I am an infant.

I do not understand your question(s). 

If you mean those incoherent claims that ownership is not ownership, a sale is not a sale, government is not government, taxation is not taxation -- all those are from SOL's website.

Did you see the one about how renting out residential real estate or acquiring property to enter the residential property landlord occupation so violates his nebulous notion of "Natural Law" that SOL says it warrants forfeiture of land title (which SOL also says should be indefeasible by any means, while SOL also says that there is to be no private ownership of anything), unless the landlord acquires the rental property by inheritance and needs rental income, in which case the intolerable landlord occupation is acceptable? 

That one is on the same page where SOL condemns copyrights and copyright rights as violative of "Natural Law" -- and what was that "Natural Law" supposed to be about -- not encroaching and not interfering with others having the "fruits" or benefits of their efforts, right -- so when you think that this stuff could not get any more incoherent, wait, it gets even more so.  There is SOL's copyright indication on the website pages.

I got that from more than one place on the SOL website.  It alternately describes the compulsory contributions to fund governmental functions as voluntary and largely voluntary.  It sets out a rationale that (what SOL indicates is the freely entered choice of) participating or even living in human society, in a place with others -- in short, being at any geographic place that has a cluster of human settlement -- is a voluntary deal to have that society's and local government's benefits and the obligation to pay for them; and further, that anyone not agreeing to that deal must depart from the community and their (always but only sometimes) indefeasibly owned place in the community, presumably to be cast out to live as a hermit in some unclaimed wilderness where no other humans would live and where no sovereign would claim dominion.  It does not square at all with SOL's also arguing the opposite(s) against any social contract notions. 

Did you see the one where SOL rants of persons being forced -- yes, forced -- to pay automobile insurance premiums?

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

Peace.

Government is government, no matter what other labels may be used.  If it functions as a government, it is a government.  Different terms do not change its substance.

Each of the United States has its own government.

It is clear that the Quran assumed governments.  Notice that the Quran directed Mohammed's group to honor its treaty obligations.  Notice also that the Quran gave them guidance for defensive warfare.  The guidance that there is to be no compulsion as to religion (or faith) is also a limit ordered for government(s).

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SOL's first words:  I am not a baby, I am an infant.

[Meteora]

 

[Azz]

It's a bit of a heavy read, I've bookmarked so I can read it properly later on.

The exact nature of Allah is something that confuses me a little, the Quran seems to give elements of both a personal god (like the "god" in christianity) and an impersonal force (like "brahman" in hinduism)

[youssef4342]

@Magnus - my bad on the misquote... typing from phone...

But, I am always questioning my assumptions. Scripture explains the many attributes of Allah, but the only verse which I am aware of which tries to describe God is the following:
http://www.islamawakened.com/Quran/24/35/default.htm

Also, I mis-spoke earlier... I don't think that God is Energy. What I meant to say was that when I think of God, I think of just pure energy.

Yes, God as Energy/light may explain the omnipotent, and omni-presence of God

[Magnus]

Yes, God as Energy/light may explain the omnipotent, and omni-presence of God

No, it really doesn't. For example, how can God be all-knowing if He is limited to the speed of light? Are you saying that God is subject to the laws of thermodynamics?

(There are constraints to this physical universe, including constraints on energy - limits to what it is and what it does, if you will. God is not constrained. Trying to figure out God through analogues to the physical world is stupid, submission to God is wise)

[Zulf]

No, it really doesn't. For example, how can God be all-knowing if He is limited to the speed of light? Are you saying that God is subject to the laws of thermodynamics?

(There are constraints to this physical universe, including constraints on energy - limits to what it is and what it does, if you will. God is not constrained. Trying to figure out God through analogues to the physical world is stupid, submission to God is wise)

Exactly. We cannot figure out God with our minds. It is like a computer game character trying to figure out the programmer, but cannot reach into that reality. We are told not to associate IT with anything, so we should not make images of God made up of physical things like light and energy or anything else. Peace.

[bkanwar2]

Exactly. We cannot figure out God with our minds. It is like a computer game character trying to figure out the programmer, but cannot reach into that reality. We are told not to associate IT with anything, so we should not make images of God made up of physical things like light and energy or anything else. Peace.

Hence, the meaning of word Allah as "one who is not at all a deity for worship".  Not like this deity or that deity.  One is not a deity and hence, there is not deity at all to worship.  Does not current meaning of Allah create a mental picture?  I do not need an answer to this question.  Just be honest to yourselves and answer it.

[Flame_Master]

Also, I mis-spoke earlier... I don't think that God is Energy. What I meant to say was that when I think of God, I think of just pure energy.

Its kinda weird how "we" perceive "Pure Energy" (because I imagine that as a blob of some kind of white light and what not - in reality, we don't know what pure Energy is, maybe matter itself?)
btw, I love your Avatar, its just so funny

Yes, God as Energy/light may explain the omnipotent, and omni-presence of God

God being Energy would imply mass and that he somehow dilates the space-time metric => He will be subject to Gravity - which is just plain weird for God!
God being Light would limit him at the speed of light and he will still be subjected to Gravity
(Because they just indicate a paradox, like, Can God make a law which he is subject to (Energy-Gravity)? or Can God make a mountain which he cannot jump over? to give some examples)

God being Energy also leads to some kind of Pantheism, since God is Energy and all matter is Energy, so one can also worship matter
God being Light cannot make him Omnipotent, being Energy might, but I am not very sure

If God were light, then it'd be very easy to hide from God (know what I mean )

To me God is the one who made all these laws of Physics, Maths and things I do not know, a being so far high that his beauty and majesty are so intensely high that we cannot comprehend entirely and hinted by everything from Laws of Biology, e^iπ=-1 and the Universe (which we evolved somehow to see it as being beautiful, even though its dangerous )

No, it really doesn't. For example, how can God be all-knowing if He is limited to the speed of light? Are you saying that God is subject to the laws of thermodynamics?

Couldn't agree more

[Zulf]

Does not current meaning of Allah create a mental picture?  I do not need an answer to this question.  Just be honest to yourselves and answer it.

Giving an answer anyway 

It doesn't create a mental image with me, because I'm not raised in an environment that uses the word 'Allah'. But, the word 'God' does, like you implied, create an image... a useless image... and that's what I always want to stay away from. Bytheway, I sometimes use the word 'Being' instead of 'God' or 'Allah', when speaking English, since this really is neutral to me... and therefore closer to reality.

Cheers and peace