Whats your understanding on Qurans teachings on gay women and men?

[Sir Comcision]

I think it's unclear, but I don't need religion to justify perfectly understandable bigotries.

[uq]

Very least bigotry, more so understanding ... for me anyway.

[Hicham]

SA.

Just wondering something. Many in here argue that we cannot deny homosexuals the right to marry in a democratic society.
This is true, since a democratic society is not built upon the permanent and non-negotiable values of the Qu'ran.

The criterias of the Qu'ran are meant in an islamic society.

So yea, if we were living in an islamic society, homosexuals could be denied their right to marry since this would go against qu'ranic values and therefor be a no-go.

That is not to say that homosexuality is a lewd act compared to some of the more hidious no-go's in the Qu'ran.
But it is still a no-no nonetheless.

As muslims, living in a non-islamic society. The best we can do is argue against homosexuality and a marriage of same sex.

But we can never enforce such a law due to their rights to chose their own partners.

[Emil]

SA.

Just wondering something. Many in here argue that we cannot deny homosexuals the right to marry in a democratic society.
This is true, since a democratic society is not built upon the permanent and non-negotiable values of the Qu'ran.

The criterias of the Qu'ran are meant in an islamic society.

So yea, if we were living in an islamic society, homosexuals could be denied their right to marry since this would go against qu'ranic values and therefor be a no-go.

That is not to say that homosexuality is a lewd act compared to some of the more hidious no-go's in the Qu'ran.
But it is still a no-no nonetheless.

As muslims, living in a non-islamic society. The best we can do is argue against homosexuality and a marriage of same sex.

But we can never enforce such a law due to their rights to chose their own partners.

Salam Hicham

I am curious on how you derived that an islamic community can deny homosexual persons to marry. First of all, in an islamic community there is no compulsion in religion, you are free to believe in anything you want. If a christian or agnostic or atheist or others homosexual couple want to marry they can do so without any interference from a religious constitution they do not believe in, even if that constitution is the ruling body of the society. Second of all, how can you as a muslim believe that you have the right to tell another muslim what sexual preference to follow? If you do believe the Quran gives evidence that homosexuality is against God, then YOU should not become gay and YOU can choose not to attend a gay wedding and YOU can choose to keep your distance and abstain from what you consider lewd. The Quran is there for your salvation (to use a christian term), it is not a rulebook so you can pass judgement on others that do not think the same as you.

This is your right, a homosexual muslim cannot force you to love homosexuality by using religion and a heterosexual muslim cannot force another to not be gay using religion.

When my sister came out of the closet I tried to find evidence in the Quran to justify my anger towards her, but no such luck....Instead Allah showed me that my personal belief  is not the same as Allah's, but Allah gives me the freedom to not like it because nowhere in the Quran is it stated we have to have the same likes, dislikes and conceive Allah exactly the same. Therefore, to follow the sunnah or Quranic values described in the mesage is to let people be who they are, after all, we did not create us, Allah did.

[uq]

Peace all,

We cannot force anyone to do anything, sexual or otherwise.

If I choose to do something wrong then that is my choice. If it is a personal injustice then my judgment lies with God, if it is an injustice whereby another party is harmed then the state has the right to intervene. The type of intervention would depend on the values upon which that state was founded.

To date, I haven't found anything in my studies of the Qur'an which stipulates a punishment for a homosexual relationship. However, the Qur'an, not once, mentions homosexual marriages, as such, homosexual marriages cannot be recognised Quranically.

Supposing that homosexuality or lesbianism was an injustice, and supposing that a state did exist which founded its values on the Qur'an, that state may still wish to recognise same-sex marriages for civil or administrative purposes, but this in no way makes them Quranically lawful, in my view.

[Wakas]

in addition to the above:

http://misconceptions-about-islam.com/islam-homosexuality.htm

[Emil]

To date, I haven't found anything in my studies of the Qur'an which stipulates a punishment for a homosexual relationship. However, the Qur'an, not once, mentions homosexual marriages, as such, homosexual marriages cannot be recognised Quranically.

Salam uq

That is a bit of a strange argument, just because it is not mentioned at all it is forbidden or recognised? There are many things not mentioned in the Quran, are all that also not recognised/forbidden?

in addition to the above:
http://misconceptions-about-islam.com/islam-homosexuality.htm

Salam Wakas

Don't you agree that many times we would like to think homosexuality is the same as lewdness because of our objective view? The fact is homosexuality is not by the letter mentioned in the Quran. This is perhaps difficult for many because our natural instinct says it is not the way nature intended. We really want homosexuality to be lewd because our instinct says it should be. I get chills down my spine even thinking of a man kissing another man...................but I let Allah be the judge, even if the men are muslims....I will never do the mistake of claiming what is lewd and what is not in the name of Allah.
I think we should set our preferences aside and try to see this as objectively as possible. Homosexuality is barely mentioned and there is no clear description of what lewd really means in the Quran. As we all know the Quran is fully detailed. Bearing that in mind and reading 49:13 O people, We created you from a male and female, and We made you into nations and tribes, that you may know one another. Surely, the most honorable among you in the sight of God is the most righteous. God is Knowledgeable, Expert. we understand that there will never be one, unilateral understanding of the Quran. We will always be different and have different values. This is good, this is what Allah wants. My perception of lewdness is different to yours, or chaste maid or anyone else. I think it is quite gay when a man wears a skirt, our malaysian sarong-wearing brothers would say "whaaat?"......I think the amount of make-up American women wear are on the borderline to prostitution, I think their husbands would not agree.........I think marrying for money is the ultimate form of lewdness, I am not if surprised if half the world would disagree

To include a personal opinion into interpreting the Quran is ok, after all you are the one that must find the details in order to make the book complete. Without using our emotions we will never understand. But one should remember to never assume that our own personal or culturally based opinion is the only truth.

When I am asked about homosexuality in islam I always say that my personal opinion not based on the Quran is that it is wrong. How Allah sees it I dare not have an opinion about. But in any case I understand from the Quran that any sexual act that can harm society or an individual is haram. What is harmful to the society is up to the society to say, but the bottom line, where Allah says enough is when lewdness becomes so grandeous it makes you or your society forget Him.

[Wakas]

w/salaam Emil,

Don't you agree that many times we would like to think homosexuality is the same as lewdness because of our objective view?

The link states:"........and any sex or lewd acts out with marriage by anyone......"

Note the use of "by anyone" - i.e. not just homosexuals.

The fact is homosexuality is not by the letter mentioned in the Quran.

I disagree. See the link for verse references.

...and there is no clear description of what lewd really means in the Quran.

I agree. A Quranic society would have to determine this within the Quranic parameters + reason/logic. Most likely it would be sexual touching BY ANYONE, so light hugging/kissing would likely be fine. That is my take.

[uq]

Peace

When I said "not recognised", I meant that the legal provisions for the enactment of same-sex marriages do not exist in the Qur'an, as opposed to normal marriages whose legal provisions do exist.

Personally, I find homosexuality repulsive. Buy my opinion is irrelevant.

You're right, to pass judgment on God's opinion about any given subject without evidence is a gross injustice, indeed, "Who has committed a greater injustice than he who invented a lie about God? Or belied His signs?"

However, God's judgment has clearly been passed in the Qur'an with regard to homosexuality. The narrations about Loot serve as enough evidence.

[uq]

Peace Wakas

Thanks for the link. Very insightful.