Why cant we scientifically prove god?

[Ahmad Bilal]

Peace, Man of Faith.

I'm not disregarding your position, nor am I attempting to encourage anyone to abandon faith in God. Personally, I don't completely disregard the notion of God, since I don't know if he/she/it exists or not... Now, is my aim to poke fun at all the funny believers? Of course not! For starters, I know exactly what it means to be a believer. I've been through nearly every avenue of Islam that I can think of, including:

1. Sunni and Wahhabi (Salaafi) Islam [they're similar, but not the same]
2. Shi'a Islam
3. Hanaafi Islam
4. Moorish Science Temple of America (e.g. Islamism)
5. Ahmadiyya Islam
6. Lahore Ahmadiyya Islam (similar in certain ways to the one mentioned above, but different)
7. Qur'aanist
8. Submitters (Rashad Khalifa's organization, which propagates the "code 19" concept)
9. Nation of Islam
10. Maliki Islam
11. Hanbaali Islam
12. Sufiyya Islam

There are probably others too!  So, trust me - I have no desire to criticize anyone for believing in the tenets of Islam, since I've been down more paths than most. In fact, in addition to those Islamic sects, I've also had my mergers with Christianity, Judaism, Catholicism, Ebionitism, Buddhism, Zoroastrianism, (certain facets of) Hinduism, Jainism, and even Philosophical Satanism (as crazy as that may sound to some)! I've been through a lot, and I don't regret any of it.

Due to (formerly) being a dedicated believer, I feel the need to ask questions concerning the factors that seem to have weakened my faith (or belief) in God and the Qur'aan. If Allah guides who he chooses to the straight path, then what can be said of someone like me, who was on the Islamic path but who somehow fell off of it? Does that make me destined for hellfire? Who knows... In any case, as mentioned, I haven't completely disregarded the notion of divinity. I just haven't seen any type of evidence to believe in God now, the way I once did; and now that I've arrived to this point, I'm not sure if it's even possible for me to go back to the way I was.

So, again, if you feel that my aim is to mock or criticize you and other believers, then you're horrendously mistaken. I'm just asking questions and hoping that someone is able to adequately answer them.

Peace,

Ahmad

[mirjamnur]

Salam Ahmad
i'm not following all the discuss but read the last pages

What you understand under a proof for the existence of God? How do you explain the emergence of a new human being in the womb - this is not proof? The perfection and the diversity of nature? This beautiful Earth and this wonderful universe, which depends on the smallest factors, so it is convinced, not?
I see the evidence of God in the observation of nature  rather than in the revealed scriptures.

You ask "which God"- there is only one power that we call God, others call it Allah  or Zeus and others call it the universal power.(etc etc.) Why do we find everywhere a central figure (with other 'Gods')  whatever name? Just because the human needs a 'God' to explain the bad destiny, fatal illness or natural disasters?
Play the name  a role?  Or religions? For me: No. Religions are man-made systems, policy: I believe in God, I believe in Jesus, I  in Satan --- In contrast, the Deen of  'the only" is "worship" in accordance with our own choice - we are part of this system, we live and we die- we have all choice how we want to live.
I see  few signs in the revelations, which contains similar wisdom, as an appeal to me. I came after i read much scriptures  to the Quran and followed him and I felt much better - It is neither violence nor illogical nor abuse or injustice - the few commandments do me good - I only get good, if I follow this wisdom - that's enough proof (I know his is not scientific )

I was a stubborn Sunni and I felt bad. The sign of a mistake.    
Paradise and the hell we create for ourselves, if we do not live in the system of God - if we don't try to be a part in this complex system. So, depending on the intensity of our wrongdoing, we punish ourselves.
But for all the injustices and cruelties which are not punished, it needs God - otherwise existence would be completely pointless. It would be no longer worth living because then all the best characteristics and the good itself would become useless -I could not live a second longer, if I can't TRUST/BELIEVE, that this all will be compensated one time. So is not the real issue: How we can prove God? But: Prove to me that life is pointless then I will become an atheist.
Sorry, english is a foreign language for me- - peace

[Nashrullah84]

Or even better why doesnt he just show himself to us??  Im really struggling with my religion at the moment and it probably hasnt helped watching all those atheist youtube clips challenging my faith! 

But I really can not understand why god doesnt just prove himself to me like he did to the rest of the prophets?  Is it not unfair that the prophets got 1st hand evidence which I will not get and the prophets only believed in god once they did receive this special evidence (e.g. moses and muhammed who werent believers until they received the word of god)?

God is fair, He gave us thoughts and ability to distinguish right from wrong. If He just showed up Himself there's no point He tests us in this world.

Atheists can say anything to deny God's existence, they only believe in materialism but ironically their "minds" are neither material nor matter. But the truth is there, the beginning of universe has a cause. If you use your logic for every reaction there must be a cause and the cause is nothing but God. Who would have such power to create something out of nothing?

[Zulf]

Prophets were not just ordinary people like most of us. They were very, very high on the spiritual ladder, in the sense that they were very spiritually pure... so they were already "close" to God.

Talking about proving God scientifically is like for a software to prove the color of the fan cooling the microprocessor in the computer. God is not a thing to prove or examine because God is not subject to our tools of our 3d-world. God is not an object to study. I find it easier to simply say that since we exist, God is by definition there. God's reality can however be experienced.

An advice: Stop worrying. Stop the mental wrestling. Your mind will just get exhausted. Instead, go inside and wish, desire, intent and pray, that you will become soft, open, receptive, clear sighted, so that you will start perceiving how this world and life works. There is so much there under the surface, unseen. It's not a matter of proof. It's not a matter of belief or fooling oneself. It's a matter of being able to see. Yes, some people pretend to see things. Atheists think all people who are into God or even spiritual things, are fooling themselves and only see what they wish to see. Well, some people do, but some people actually see for real, but they usually keep it to themselves because they know that it doesn't matter how much you talk about it, or try to convince other people about it, they will still never be able to convince someone just by words. For anyone to see beyond the mere material, whether it is unseen things or apparently unseen connections of cause and effect... we first must do the inner work, the inner gardening an cultivation. It takes alot of work, correct work. Like I said, it's not about intellectual knowledge... rather it is about knowing through experience and glimpses. Experience you only get when you are soft enough and open enough to perceive it. What it takes is purification. In other words, one has to be able to tune in to that part of reality. Just like some insects can see wavelengths beyond the spectrum of colors that are visible to us... we can get more tuned in to unseen aspects of reality... but it takes purification.

Peace

[uq]

In any case, as mentioned, I haven't completely disregarded the notion of divinity. I just haven't seen any type of evidence to believe in God now, the way I once did; and now that I've arrived to this point, I'm not sure if it's even possible for me to go back to the way I was.

Peace Ahmad,

Two points.

(1) This depends wholly on your definiton of "evidence". What I might observe in the natural world that qualifies as "evidence" for the existence of the Creator, may not be seen by others as "evidence". Thus, define "evidence".

(2) As I have pointed out in my above post, I have not seen a single argument in the Quran that makes an argument for the "existence" of God, rather, all arguments are based on the oneness of God.

[huruf]

Peace Ahmad,

Two points.

(1) This depends wholly on your definiton of "evidence". What I might observe in the natural world that qualifies as "evidence" for the existence of the Creator, may not be seen by others as "evidence". Thus, define "evidence".

(2) As I have pointed out in my above post, I have not seen a single argument in the Quran that makes an argument for the "existence" of God, rather, all arguments are based on the oneness of God.

You should stop at "Onenness", full stop.

Salaam

[Mazhar]

(2) As I have pointed out in my above post, I have not seen a single argument in the Quran that makes an argument for the "existence" of God, rather, all arguments are based on the oneness of God.

Excellent; but we should be sure about it. What we understand by "existence" and how are we convinced - have knowledge to perceive existence of someone-person-entity; object; phenomenon? Does argument for evidence of existence is only "visual observation"?

What can be the tangible evidence of existence of something or some person whom I cannot see or touch because of my own limitations even if I hear his voice or read a communication from him? Can we see or touch to have the feel or evidence of existence of non-matter?

Interestingly we have a Book named Qur'aan but the person who gave it in writing did not claim to be its author; instead said it is the Word of Sustainer Lord of the Worlds.

Existence:

1.  being real: the state of being real, actual, or current, rather than imagined, invented, or obsolete evidence for the existence of other world

2.  presence in place or situation: the presence or occurrence of something in a particular place or situation 

[Ahmad Bilal]

Peace, uq.

(1) This depends wholly on your definiton of "evidence". What I might observe in the natural world that qualifies as "evidence" for the existence of the Creator, may not be seen by others as "evidence". Thus, define "evidence".

By "evidence", I was referring to an accumulation of facts and substantiated information that verify the existence of a supernatural being or force. In other words, I was looking for something irrefutable, something that could ultimately prove the existence of a Creator... My position, since I posted that comment, has changed over time, however. I tend to view ALLAH as certainly being real, and there is very little distinction in the natural world, from my perspective, between God and the Universe (although there is a definite difference between the two). Again, though, that's just my perspective.

Ultimately, God can't be "proven" in an objective sense because there is no concrete definition of what a "god" is. And, besides that, there are many concepts of God that can never be substantiated in reality, e.g. the idea that God is 'an invisible man in the sky', etc. From my position, the concept of ALLAH being equated to the Universe (or, at least the idea of nature being an extension of God) can definitely be proven, because we can witness the wonders of the Universe with our physical senses.

(2) As I have pointed out in my above post, I have not seen a single argument in the Quran that makes an argument for the "existence" of God, rather, all arguments are based on the oneness of God.

I agree. I also think the Qur'aan tends to point to the unity ("oneness") of everything - existence as a whole. From my perspective, ALLAH isn't something separate from us. He's all around, and within, all of us.

Peace,

Ahmad

[uq]

Peace Ahmad,

I think we are mostly in agreement.

Evidence, in the scientific sense, I believe, does not exist. As the object of study?God?transcends all things material and immaterial alike; how then is God to be quantified and qualified in any such manner when the Scientific Method is fundamentally concerned with the constituent parts of the universe itself?

I say that the only forms of evidence that exist in proof of God are twofold.

The first is in the form of order, that is to say, an orderly universe, a universe in which laws are relatively constant in our perception and have been facilitative of the development of life on this tiny rock.

The second is in the form of observation. In this regard, the evidence for God, I believe, is wholly sensory. The observation that the universe is ordered, that the earth is in revolution, that there is an alternation of night and day, that all living things are made of water, that water is caused to descend from the sky thereby causing a growth of plants edible and otherwise, that many of today's animals have been made docile rendering them suitable for our laborious tasks, that the diversity of human colours and tongues does exist, that embryonic development is such that the observer's breath is nigh on suspended!?all such observations lend the observer not merely recognition of God's being, but also of God's oneness.

[Ahmad Bilal]

Peace, uq, and I apologize for the late reply.

Evidence, in the scientific sense, I believe, does not exist. As the object of study?God?transcends all things material and immaterial alike; how then is God to be quantified and qualified in any such manner when the Scientific Method is fundamentally concerned with the constituent parts of the universe itself?

That was a major issue of mine for quite a while. My viewpoint now, though, differs from this. I think that God actually CAN be proven scientifically; most people just don't know where to look and, more importantly, what to look for. There are various definitions for what a "god" is to most people, and people are looking for what they believe to be God. And, of course, this god can never be found... Since I look at things more along the lines of pantheism (or even panentheism), I see God every time I look out of my window, every time I look in the mirror, and every time I look at my children. God, to me, is life. God is everywhere and in everything.

Tying that in from a scientific perspective, I guess I'd illustrate it in the form of the five senses:

1. I see God when I look in the mirror.
2. I hear God when I listen to a thoughtful and inspiring speech or lecture.
3. I smell God when I take a whiff of roses.
4. I taste God when I bite into an orange.
5. I feel God when I hold my children, or shake a friend's hand.

Now, I wouldn't necessarily characterize things in that specific context; but I think you get the overall point I'm referring to.

And, ultimately, all of these things are ONE ("waahiyd"/singular and unique) - working in complete unity and harmony. The Universe is a gigantic, pluralized singularity operating as a unit. That's what God is to me.

Peace,

Ahmad