THE CODE
19 DEBATE
INTRODUCTION
In
April 2005, an article entitled "Idiot's Guide to Code 19"
was published on the Free-Minds.Org web site. The article
tries to address in easy to understand non-technical terms
the methodology and data definition issues associated with
Code 19. All numerology doesn't stand scrutiny when those
issues are brought up. The article can be found in this
link:
http://www.free-minds.org/articles/science/ayman19.htm
Edip
Yuksel, a long time promoter of Code 19, responded with an
article entitled "Intelligent People's Guide to Code 19" and
it can be found here:
http://19.org/index.php?id=14,246,0,0,1,0
The
following presents the ensuing debate between Edip Yuksel,
and Ayman, the author of The Idiot's Guide to Code 19 at
both the Free-Minds.Org and 19.org forums.
THE DEBATE ROUND 1
Thank
you for your response and for taking time out of your busy
schedule to write this essay. I see that my article has had
a positive effect on you and this is reflected in some of
your translations that are significantly more truthful than
Dr. Khalifa's distorted translations. Unfortunately, I can
also see why your response is quite lengthy. It often
digresses into lengthy nostalgic stories of the history of
the discovery of the alleged mathematical miracle. Also, a
lot of space in the article is dedicated to personal attacks
and extensive and repetitive name calling perhaps thinking
that if one repeats something long enough it will stick.
Although I appreciate the personal attention that you are
giving me (it shows that I am pushing the right buttons),
your case would be better served by focusing on the issues.
To focus the discussion on the
issues and in order not to waste the reader's time, I will
organize my response to your criticism under ten short
sections:
1. Mistranslation of the great
reading
Edip perhaps you can help me answer
this question. Why is it that when it comes to justifying
their "miracle" based on the great reading, Code-19
promoters have to insert words that don't exist, twist
meanings, and even invent new meanings? I know that you
don't like this and you have personally criticized Aidid
Safar for inventing meanings. But at least Aidid tried to
present some argument (regardless of whether it is sound or
not) as to why he departed from the Arabic dictionary
meaning. On the other hand, 19ers insult the intelligence of
the reader by silently inventing meanings without providing
any justification.
Right off the bat, such forced
mistranslations do not help your cause:
|
Edip Yuksel wrote: |
|
"Indeed, the book of the righteous will be in 'Elleyyeen.
Do you know what 'Elleyyeen is? A numerically
structured book. To be witnessed by those close to
me." (83:18-21) |
A new meaning for "marqum" as
"numerically structured" is invented without providing any
argument as to why the clear Arabic meaning was not used.
The meaning has no basis in classical Arabic dictionaries.
Here is what the dictionaries say about the word:
Wasit:
مَرْقُومٌ،
ةٌ - [ر ق م]. (مفع. مِنْ رَقَمَ).
1."ثَوْبٌ مَرْقُومٌ" :
مُخَطَّطٌ أَوْ مُطَرَّزٌ. 2."كِتَابٌ
مَرْقُومٌ" : كِتَابٌ مَسْطُورٌ بَيِّنُ الكِتَابَةِ. "مَا
هُوَ مَرْقُومٌ يَدُومُ".
Lisan
Al 3arab:
وكتاب
مَرْقُوم أي قد بُيِّنتْ حروفه بعلاماتها من التنقيط
Clearly, Arabic dictionaries say
that "marqum" means "written/recorded" or "whose letters are
dotted". There is nothing in there about "numerically
structured".
This type of silent invention of
meanings insults the intelligence of the reader because it
doesn’t even attempt to provide a justification and hence
assumes that the reader is not intelligent enough to make up
their own mind about whether the invented meaning is
justified or not. It also assumes that the he or she will
not verify the meaning against other translations or
classical Arabic dictionaries and discover the distortion.
More mistranslation:
|
Edip Yuksel wrote: |
|
"Say, 'What if it is from GOD and you disbelieved in
it? A witness from the Children of Israel has borne
witness to a similar phenomenon, and he has
believed, while you have turned arrogant. Surely, GOD
does not guide the wicked people.'" (46:10)
|
Of course, the reader can guess what
Code-19 promoters claim this "phenomenon" is. Why do they
always have to work so hard at twisting the meanings, adding
words out of the blue and inventing meanings? The answer is
always that they are trying hard to make the great reading
fit their preconceived "Code 19 miracle".
On a positive note, Edip finally
admits that the word "ayat" means "signs" and not "proofs"
and hence indirectly admits that this meaning was invented
by 19ers to distort 10:1, 12:1, 13:1, 15:1, 26:1-2, 27:1,
28:1-2, 31:1-2. Unfortunately, he fails to grasp the
implication of such admission and instead resorts to strange
arguments to continue to justify that "ayat" refers to
so-called "initials". Here is an example:
|
Edip Yuksel wrote: |
|
However, its plural form AYAAT is used for both
signs/miracles the revelation contained in the
scripture. Since, the singular form is never used to
refer a verse in the scripture, we can infer that
unless it is at least three verses, they do not count
as a divine sign or miracle. For instance, the verse
"Where are you going?" cannot be called AYAAT (signs)
since it is one verse. This is very appropriate, since
that expression was and is used by Arabic speaking
people daily, even before the revelation of the Quran.
|
Edip gives up the invented meaning
of "proofs" only to invent another new meaning of "verses".
It is an indisputable fact that the word "verses" in Arabic
means "abyat" NOT "ayat". Hence, we hear about "verses of
poetry" as "abyat shi3r" NOT "ayat shi3r".
It can also be logically seen that
verses and signs are not equivalent. The purpose of a sign/"aya(t)"
is to provide GUIDANCE. Half a sentence or a "verse" that is
meaningless without what came before it doesn't provide
guidance and cannot logically be a sign/"aya(t)". For
example, we hear at the end of the story of Moses in
26:10-67: "in this is an "ayat"/sign (singular)". Surely,
The God doesn't mean that the "aya(t)" is described in just
26:67. Instead it is what is described in all the story from
the beginning that provides guidance and hence is a sign/"aya(t)"
(singular) despite encompassing several "verses". In fact,
26:67 is meaningless on its own and hence doesn't provide
any guidance. On the other hand we have 2:164 that contains
several "aya(t)"/signs despite it being a single so-called
"verse".
|
Edip Yuksel wrote: |
I concede that it is possible to understand the
reference of the "these" to be the "following verses."
However, I prefer the reference of "these" to be the
"previous alphabet letters" for the following reasons:
- The expression "these are signs", which is
repeated eight times, is used ONLY with conjunction of
alphabet letters.
- If it refers to the verses of the Quran, it
becomes a dull and redundant statement. A reader
might ask, "Okay, I see that these are verses of the
Quran. So what?" Or, if "Okay, these are
signs/miracles of the Quran. How?" |
I agree with Edip that it is dull
and redundant to anyone who mistakenly thinks that "ayat/signs"
means "verses". The fact is that right at the beginning of
Chapter 24, 24:1 points to "ayat/signs" being in this
chapter despite the chapter having no initials. Since 24:1
cannot possibly be pointing to anything other than what is
coming AFTERWARDS, now Edip will claim that 24:1 is "dull
and redundant".
Moreover, his other point about
"these" only pointing to the so-called "initials" is
completely negated by 2:1-2 where the same type of pointing
device comes right after "Alm" and is pointing to the book.
Clearly, the Alm is not the book.
|
Edip Yuksel wrote: |
- The numerous examples of the code 19 and its evident
presence
in some Quranic initials are sufficient to reveal the
function of these letters. Though we lack a reliable
data regarding the number of Alifs, based on our
knowledge of the mathematical structure of the Quran
we can justifiably expect that when we learn the exact
frequencies of these letters in the original text will
participate in the 19-based structure.
- "On it is nineteen!" (74:30) |
Of course, this is the only valid
reason in Edip's mind. However, any logical person can see
that what he has built is a circular argument. It goes
something like this:
The word "ayat" must refer to Code
19 because there is a Code 19 miracle in the great reading
and the proof that Code 19 is a miracle is that the word "ayat"
refers to Code 19.
2. "Doctors who smoke" syndrome
I apologize in advance to the
scientifically literate reader because in this section I
have to waste his or her time to state the obvious on the
way science works. Unfortunately, the obvious needs to be
stated because of comments such as these:
|
Edip Yuksel wrote: |
First, he claims that he has personally not heard of
any mathematician or statistician who declared his
belief in this system. I personally know some
mathematicians and statisticians who have witnessed
the extraordinary nature of this miracle, but I will
not drop their names here, since I assume that they
may not want to be disturbed by neither Ayman's
idiots, nor fanatic terrorists who killed Rashad, the
original discoverer of this miraculous code. Anyone
who knows the risk of accepting this miracle,
especially a public figure, such as a university
professor, will understand the reason why many
mathematicians are not sending their cards to brother
Ayman. Not every believer may be as brave as the two
magicians who declared their support of Moses despite
Pharaoh's threat. Hiding one's belief to protect one's
life is justified by God (3:27).
Besides, Ayman either does not know or has forgotten
that the mathematical miracle of the Quran is not
popular with the followers of Hadith and Sunnah. ....
|
At any rate, Edip goes into another
lengthy discussion about how the world is not fair to the
few closet 19ers scientists and mathematicians. Firstly, let
me say that there may be a few "scientists and
mathematicians" here and there that believed in Code 19 much
as there are a few doctors who smoke. Yet, no doctor that
smokes will ever publish a paper in a peer reviewed
scientific journal claiming that "smoking is good for your
health". Similarly, no scientist or mathematician will ever
publish a paper in any peer reviewed scientific journal
endorsing Code 19. This is not because the editors of
scientific journals such as Nature are bearded Sunni
fanatics or are apathetic to the great reading, but it is
because they are apathetic to false science.
Code 19 promoters are free to call
Code-19 a "miracle" all they want. However, until it meets
the standards of modern scientific research, namely passing
peer review in a scientific journal, then they cannot call
it a "scientific miracle" or a "mathematical miracle".
The only person who may be close to
a scientist that I know of who has wrote anything to promote
Code 19 is Dr. Richard Voss. Here is what Edip writes about
him:
|
Edip Yuksel wrote: |
|
Richard Voss, one of the few Western mathematicians
who studied the numerical structure of the Quran, is
more positive than negative... |
I am surprised that Edip is not
terribly excited over Dr. Voss's study. As I pointed in the
article, he achieved better results than even Dr. Khalifa.
Of course, as I explained in the article those results are
meaningless because they were achieved by trying until
finding the best method and only presenting the best method.
This is kind of like flipping a coin and only presenting the
results were you got heads and then claim that the
probability of 6 heads in a row is low therefore it must be
a miracle.
Now Edip seems disappointed that Dr.
Voss was "more positive than negative". What did he expect
"all positive"? Herein is the problem. Edip like most
Code-19 promoters has already formed a preconception about
Code 19. From that point on anything that comes along can
only "fully positively" confirm his preconception. He never
even considers the possibility of studying without a
preconception.
3. The Code-19 Archeologist
|
Edip Yuksel wrote: |
|
I understand and respect Ayman's concern regarding the
abuse of multiple manuscripts to concoct numerical
coincidences. However, categorically rejecting the use
of various manuscripts for a critical and
comparative study to infer the accurate version or
spelling of original Quranic verses is absurd.
|
I would like to know, as I am sure
many readers, what critical and comparative study did Dr.
Khalifa, Edip, or any Code-19 promoter conduct "to infer the
accurate version or spelling of original Quranic verses" for
words that have no bearing on their counts?
The silence is so deafening that you
can hear a pin drop.
Of course 19ers only conduct
"critical and comparative study to infer the accurate
version or spelling of original Quranic verses... that fixes
their counts". As for words that don't factor into their
counts, they are not worthy of "critical and comparative
study to infer the accurate version or spelling of original
Quranic verses".
It is clear that the "Code-19
archeologist" objective is not to uncover the truth about
what really happened. It is to fix a count so that it adds
up to 19.
4. Evading the Standard
Methodology Issue
Instead of addressing the issue,
Edip evades it and again hides behind a lengthy nostalgic
story recounting of the history of the discovery of the
"miracle". He seems to be doing this in the hope that the
reader will forget about the inconvenience of the
requirement for a "standard methodology" because those two
words demolish Code-19.
5. Appealing to "Nusemantics"
Again, instead of addressing the
issues, Edip goes on a tangent that has nothing to do with
Code-19. He gives a dozen or so instances where the count of
words may add up to certain numbers. Of course, none of
those counts add up to 19 so even assuming that the
different forms of a word were counted objectively, this has
nothing to do with proving that there is a Code-19 in the
great reading.
6. Disregarding the rules of
mathematics
Edip then tries to impress the
reader by providing table after table of calculations while
implicitly admitting that "just two letters" out of all the
so-called initials give some kind of a pattern. However,
even for just those two letters he does not provide the most
basic info needed to evaluate the results in those tables:
1. An objective measure of the
statistical significance of the results.
2. A clearly defined method of how
he got the results and how that method was constantly
applied.
3. A clear definition of the data
set to which the method was applied.
4. A clear explanation of why this
particular method was selected.
5. A clearly documented audit trail
of BOTH successes and FAILURES. For example:
- Trials where this method did not
give a 19-divisible number.
- Other methods that were tried and
did not give a 19-divisible number.
Surely, Edip does a fine job of
presentation but without the above information then one can
make equally impressive presentations about any document.
Similarly in his section entitled HOW CAN ONE DISTINGUISH,
he didn't provide any of the above info.
To use Edip's words one could say:
"I want to share with you, one single detail in the
frequency of words in Edip's article. This alone should be
sufficient to debunk all criticism regarding the
probability. It is the unappreciative people who are hiding
the facts. The total frequency of the word Ayman in Edip's
article is actually 114 (6x19)!"
Yes folks, this is true. Is it a
miracle? Perhaps some 19ers would think so. On the other
hand, I would say that it is a sign that Edip was focusing
too much on me as opposed to on the issue.
7. Ignoring the difference
between "3ida(t)/count" and "3adad/number"
Again, Edip tries to divert the
attention of the reader from the clear and consistent Arabic
meaning as used in the great reading and instead focuses on
me:
|
Edip Yuksel wrote: |
|
First, Ayman forgets that he too could not escape from
counting. To write this article, Ayman either spent
hours and perhaps days counting units of the Quran, or
he counted nothing. Either way, Ayman has shot himself
in the foot, again. |
Had Edip read carefully 74:31 then
he would have seen that not just any "count" is the "fitna/trial/affliction"
it is the count of the guardians of hell. When I count
anything and I get the result as 19 or 19 divisible, I don't
link what I am counting to the count of the guardians of
hell in 74:30. On the other hand, 19ers do. That is the
difference between obsessive and normal behavior.
|
Edip Yuksel wrote: |
|
Not for Ayman's intellectually challenged audience,
but for my intelligent audience, I am going to quote
the verses that contain the eight occurrences of the
very word ADDah, a word that Ayman is trying to
hurl into abyss of ambiguity. I will also quote
the verses where this word is attached to pronouns. I
will highlight the translation of the words so that
you will reflect on its meaning in their context.
|
There is nothing ambiguous about
what I am saying. I am clearly saying that "ADDah (3ida(t))"
consistently means "count". If I were "trying to hurl the
word "ADDah" into the abyss of ambiguity then I would
haphazardly interchange its meaning between "number" and
"count" as Edip is doing below:
|
Edip Yuksel wrote: |
"Numbered days. Whoever of you is ill or traveling,
then the same NUMBER from different days; and
as for those who can do so but with difficulty, they
may redeem by feeding the needy. And whoever does good
voluntarily, then it is better for him. And if you
fast it is better for you if you knew. (2:184)
"The month of Ramazan, in which the Quran was sent
down as a guide to the people and a clarification of
the guidance and the criterion. Therefore, whoever of
you can observe the month, let him fast therein. And
whoever is ill or traveling, then the same NUMBER
from different days. God wants to bring you ease and
not to bring you hardship; and so that you may
complete the COUNT, and glorify God for what He
has guided you, that you may be thankful. (2:185)
|
Talk about ambiguity, notice how the
same exact word "ADDah (3ida(t))" is sometimes translated as
"number" while other times it is translated as "count". Of
course, only the word "count" would perfectly fit in all the
above occurrences since there is nothing inherently complete
or incomplete about any particular number and hence
"completing the number" is nonsense.
|
Edip Yuksel wrote: |
"The NUMBER of the months with God is twelve months in
God's record the day He created the heavens and the
Earth; four of them are restricted. This is the
correct system; so do not wrong yourselves in them;
and fight those who set up partners collectively as
they fight you collectively. And know that God is with
the righteous." (9:37).
"Know that accelerating the intercalary is an addition
in rejection, to misguide those who have rejected by
it. They make it lawful one calendar year, and they
forbid it one calendar year, so as to circumvent the
COUNT that God has made restricted; thus they make
lawful what God made forbidden! Their evil works have
been adorned for them, and God does not guide the
rejecting people." (9:36) |
Notice once again how the same exact
word "ADDah (3ida(t))" is one time translated as "number"
while another time it is translated as "count". Once again,
only the word "count" would perfectly fit in both of the
above occurrences since "circumventing" is tied to the act
of counting while "circumventing the number" is nonsense.
Moreover, saying that the number of
months is twelve is patently false. If what is meant is the
absolute number from the time of creation of the heavens and
the earth, then this is in the billions and not twelve. If
what is meant is the number of constant periods in a year
then that is never twelve either in any calendar. It is 12.3
in the lunar calendar, solar calendars are forced to have
inconsistent months, while luni-solar calendars are forced
to have years with 13 months. Therefore what is meant is not
the number but what we should count. For more information,
please see:
http://www.free-minds.org/articles/science/timing.htm
A count can be out of possible
alternatives as we see below:
|
Edip Yuksel wrote: |
|
"Some would say, 'They were three; their dog being the
fourth,' while others would say, 'Five; the sixth
being their dog,' as they guessed. Others said,
'Seven,' and the eighth was their dog. Say, 'My Lord
is the best knower of their NUMBER.' Only a few know
them. Therefore, do not argue with them; just go along
with them. You need not consult anyone about this."
(18:22) |
A count can be a count out of a
larger number. In this case out of the menstruations that a
woman gets from the time of divorce:
|
Edip Yuksel wrote: |
"O you who believe, if you marry the believing women,
then divorced them before having intercourse with
them, then there is no INTERIM required of them. You
shall compensate them, and let them go in an amicable
manner." (33:49)
"O you prophet, when you people divorce the women, you
shall ensure that a divorce INTERIM is fulfilled. You
shall count (aHSuW) such an INTERIM precisely." (65:1)
|
Here is what Edip says about 33:49:
|
Edip Yuksel wrote: |
|
This argument shows how desperate Ayman is. Referring
to verse 33:49, Ayman wants us to believe that a
divorced woman has duty of "counting", instead of her
duty to fulfill the number of specified days. Perhaps
he thinks a divorced woman will count One, Two, Three,
Four… Perhaps a bit louder so that her ex-husband
could hear. Joke aside, the Arabic equivalent of
counting is "Adda-Yauddu" or "ahsa-yahussu." |
Clearly, 65:1 is telling us "to be
precise with the count" not to be precise with the "number".
Also, indeed a woman does have to count three menstruations
before the divorce is final. She also indeed does have to
loudly or somehow inform her ex-husband of the count because
he can't precisely tell if she is having her period or not.
Hiding an unborn child is no joking matter.
Again, talking about ambiguity and
inconsistency, Edip fluctuates between "count", "number" and
"interim" for no apparent reason when "count" would fit
perfectly in all occurrences.
Now here is the whole reason for
Edip's inconsistency and ambiguity:
|
Edip Yuksel wrote: |
|
"On it is nineteen. We appointed angels to be
guardians of Hell, and we made their NUMBER to be only
a trial/punishment for the unappreciative, to convince
those who received the book, to strengthen the faith
of the faithful, to remove doubts from the hearts of
those who received the book, as well as the believers,
and to expose those who harbor doubt in their hearts,
and the disbelievers; they will say, "What did GOD
mean by this allegory?" GOD thus sends astray whoever
wills, and guides whoever wills. None knows the
soldiers of your Lord except He. This is a reminder
for the people." (74:30-31) |
I must give Edip credit because at
least his above translation is a major improvement over Dr.
Khalifa's translation:
KHALIFA:
74:31. We appointed angels to be
guardians of Hell, and we assigned their number (19) (1) to
disturb the disbelievers, (2) to convince the Christians and
Jews (that this is a divine scripture), (3) to strengthen
the faith of the faithful, (4) to remove all traces of doubt
from the hearts of Christians, Jews, as well as the
believers, and (5) to expose those who harbor doubt in their
hearts, and the disbelievers; they will say, "What did GOD
mean by this allegory?" GOD thus sends astray whomever He
wills, and guides whomever He wills. None knows the soldiers
of your Lord except He. This is a reminder for the people.
Here are the improvements:
1. Instead of the action "to
disturb" which doesn't occur in the sentence, now the
translation correctly describes the count of the guardians
of hell as the "fitna"/trial/affliction.
2. Now "the number" is not the
reason why "the faith of the faithful is strengthened".
Instead, the reason why "the faith of the faithful is
strengthened" is that they see that "their count is only a
trial/punishment for the unappreciative".
Now that Edip largely corrected Dr.
Khalifa's mistranslation, he should take the next step and
see the clear implication of his correction.
8. Acknowledgement of the
inconsistency in Code-19
As I said at the beginning, there
are many positive developments in Edip's response. Here he
implicitly acknowledges the inconsistencies in Code-19.
|
Edip Yuksel wrote: |
|
A confused argument. With the same logic, we should
trash ALL the translations of the Quran with their
ENTIRETY, since we will find some inconsistencies
within the same translation and between different
translations. |
Indeed, we should reject
inconsistencies in translations. The whole premise of
Code-19 is that it is a "precise mathematical miracle".
Therefore, inconsistencies destroy that basic premise. It is
no longer a "precise mathematical miracle" but is a "miracle
in the eye of the beholder". Kind of like the golden calf
that the descendents of
Israel built.
Remember, the calf didn't speak back to them or guide them
much like Code-19 doesn't guide anyone.
9. The misunderstanding of 3:7
3:7 can be easily understood in
light of 2:26. It also provides the link between 3:7 and
74:31. From 2:26 we can clearly see that "mutashabihat"
means allegorical. There is nothing ambiguous about
allegories. As for the word "taawil" in 3:7 it doesn't have
the simple meaning of "meaning". It means the "original
intended meaning/interpretation". Of course descriptions of
heaven and hell are allegorical. No one knows for example
why The God chose to use such allegories because we can't
even imagine what hell and heaven are like. On the other
hand, sectarians claim to know the original meaning of the
allegory of the "straight path" (a high-wire act over hell)
and the meaning of "on it is 19" (an esoteric Code). This
despite the fact that NONE knows The God's soldiers except
Him in the same way that in 3:7 NONE knows the original
meaning except Him.
The parallel between 74:31 and 3:7
and how they are tied by 2:26 is very compelling. If
anything people should be very careful about saying that
they know the original meaning of the clearly allegorical
sequence leading to and including 74:30.
10. The myth of initials
|
Edip Yuksel wrote: |
|
Now, he wants us to believe his theory, just by one
example! An example based on a fabricated hadith! If
he is not a used car sales person, he should try that
as his career. He has dug numerous hadith books and
the footnotes of the dictionaries to come up with a
meaning for the letters and he has failed.
|
Firstly, I gave meaning for 11 out
of the 29 sets based on classical Arabic dictionaries not
based on any Hadith. Moreover, all the meanings I gave fit
in the context. So this is not just about giving one
example.
Here is another example of a word
that appears ONLY at the beginning of a chapter and NEVER
appears elsewhere. Yet no Code-19 promoter takes this word
as initials. For example, Chapter 78 starts with the two
letters "3in" and "mim". This word "3m" never occurs in any
other place in the great reading and it is written as a
connected word exactly like "7m", "alm", "alr", etc. How
come no one ever claims that the word "3m" at the beginning
of Chapter 78 is actually initials?
We can even see that Chapter 78 can
be read as they read the chapters with alleged initials:
3in Mim. They are asking one
another about the great news...
Now if we take 3in Mim as a word and
not initials:
3M they are asking one another
about the great news...
Edip will claim that the above is
ungrammatical.
However, seeing in the dictionary
that 3m is an abbreviation for "3an matha" (about what), we
can reconstruct the sentence grammatically as follows:
About what are they asking one
another? About the great news...
The above is the same process that I
went through in deciphering the 11 out of 29 words.
I believe that brother Truth
actually counted the frequency of 3in and Mim in chapter 78
on another thread and found that they are both individually
19 divisible as well as when added together, which is more
than we can say about "7a mim". However, the criterion of
whether to consider letters as forming a word or a bunch of
separate initials is not whether the count of the letters in
the chapters where it occurs is divisible by 19 or not. The
criteria are the following:
1. How the letters are written: This
should be obvious to anyone who knows Arabic and Edip and
Code-19 promoters clearly know this fact but choose to
ignore it. In the Arabic alphabet separate initials take on
a different form than letters that are connected to form a
word. This is indisputable and by itself is complete and
sufficient proof that we are looking at words and not
initials. Saying that words such as "7m", "alm", and "alr"
are initials is simply wishful thinking not supported by
what everybody can empirically see with their own eyes. So
this is enough and I really don't need to say anything more.
However, let me continue so that there isn't even the
slightest shadow of a doubt.
2. How the words fit in the context:
The whole "initials" theory is like a house of cards. All we
needed to prove is that just ONE has meaning and the meaning
fits to destroy the entire "initials" theory. Even an
average person like me with humble resources was able to
easily find that out of the 29 sets, not one but at least 11
have meanings and the meanings fit in the context.
3. How the Arabic language works: As
an informal common people language, the Arabic of the great
reading is full of abbreviations and slang words. By
Classical Arabic standards there are even words that are
grammatically incorrect or misspelled in the great reading.
Let's take the example I gave from Chapter 78. The word "3m"
is a slang abbreviation of "3an matha" (about what). It is
abbreviated and rendered in the beginning of Chapter 78 as
"3m". By the same token, probably most of the other 18 words
that we haven't discovered a meaning for yet are a similar
types of abbreviations. The fact is that abbreviations that
may seem like initials such as 3m for "3an matha" are normal
in Arabic.
THE DEBATE ROUND 2
|
Edip Yuksel wrote: |
|
In his quick answer, Ayman ignored many points made in
my defense of the mathematical structure of the Quran.
Those who read my article will notice that Ayman have
ignored numerous crucial points made against his
position. |
Edip, it is clear to those who read
your article that nostalgic stories about the history of the
"precise mathematical (sigh) miracle" have sentimental value
to you and hence you spent a lot of space on them. However,
as an author you should keep your audience in mind when
writing an article. You should not expect the reader to
share your fondness for such "crucial" stories. I did you a
favor by focusing the discussion on ten issues instead of
"crucial" nostalgia and personal attacks. This is evident in
that your response to the ten issues was prompt, more to the
point, and with less name calling (you can thank me later).
In this response, I will also keep to the ten points.
1. Mistranslation of the great
reading
|
Edip Yuksel wrote: |
|
Ayman, the author of "Idiot's Guide…" has somehow
become too defensive regarding his intellect. If I
explained why I did not repeat the errors of
traditional translations for every correct translation
I presented, my lengthy response would be much longer.
(However, we will discuss the difference in our
translations in the upcoming Reformist Translation of
the Quran, God willing). It does not take much
intelligence to expect that Ayman or another zealot
opponent of the mathematical miracle would notice our
translation if it differed from traditional one.
However, I expected that inquisitive people would
learn the reason for our differing from the
traditional translations on their own; it seems Ayman
is not one of them. |
Where did I compare your translation
to a traditional translation such as that of Yusuf Ali? I
never did. I only pointed out the invention of words to make
the great reading fit a preconception of Code 19.
|
Edip Yuksel wrote: |
|
The Arabic word KiTaB (book) comes from the verb
KaTaBa (write). So, the word KiTaB means "writing,
letter, book" Another form, MaKTuB means "written
thing, letter." If Ayman wants to collapse the
meaning of MaRQuM to of MaKTuB, then, the phrase
in the verse, "Kitabun Marqum" means "a written
writing." This superfluous expression is what Ayman
suggests to fit "the great reading" in his mind!
|
Here Edip is building a strawman. I
gave the clear dictionary meaning. Classical Arabic
dictionaries give the meaning of "marqum" as
"recorded/inscribed", "lined" and "dotted" and "raqim" as
"record/inscription". All those meanings fit in the context
and fit with what we can observe about the great reading.
Now Edip might say that a manuscript described as a "written
record" is a "superfluous expression" because "record" and
"write" can have the same meaning. However, he can't change
the simple fact that such expressions are normal in all
languages.
|
Edip Yuksel wrote: |
|
I argue that the correct translation is "a numbered
writing," or "numerically-structured writing." Ayman,
with his dogmatic and fanatic reaction to the manifest
examples of mathematical pattern in the Quran, fits
the profile described above. Here are the dots that
Ayman failed to connect: in his claim that "marqum
means whose letters are dotted." Had Ayman educated
himself regarding the history of mathematics, and
especially Abjad and Arabic numerals, he could easily
connect the dots in that definition. In old
manuscripts belonging to the 7th and 8th centuries, we
see that dots are rarely used. |
I don't think that "rarely" is an
accurate description. There are even examples of very early
dotting dating to the 4th century and earlier on mundane
inscriptions. Please see:
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Inscriptions/jramm.html
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Inscriptions/raqush.html
Moreover, if "dotting" was used on
such mundane average everyday documents as business letters
early in the 7th century (for example see:
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Papyri/PERF558.html
)
then we can be certain that it was
widely used:
More importantly, as Edip himself
pointed out there are early manuscripts of the great reading
that are fully dotted.
|
Edip Yuksel wrote: |
|
There are extensive scholarly studies about the
emergence of dots in Arabic letters, and archeological
evidences show that dots were in use centuries before
the revelation of the Quran. |
Yes I agree. However, Edip
conveniently forgets to mention that in none of those
archeological evidences the dotted Arabic letters are used
to denote numerals as he will claim later.
|
Edip Yuksel wrote: |
Though, Arabic alphabet had 28 letters, and words
differed from each other based on those 28 letters,
many early scribes did not bother to put dots on
letters; they could differentiate letters and words
within their immediate and proximate context. They
preferred simplicity and economy in writing.
I have studied Quranic manuscripts written without
dots, though I am not a native Arabic speaker, I can
read those un-dotted text. The reading speed increases
with more practice. For some words, one needs to solve
an intricate literary puzzle. Imagine that the letters
B, T, TH, Y, N are all written the same, with no dots!
To read an un-dotted book, one need to be proficient
in Arabic, understand the text, remember the context,
and be intelligent enough to solve the puzzles
quickly. In other words, the early manuscripts were
automatically eliminating the illiterate, the
context-ignorant, and the idiot from the pool of
potential readers. Thus, reading the early manuscripts
of the Quran implied its comprehension, its contextual
integrity and the intelligence of the reader. With the
use of dots and diatrical marks, now even the parrots
and idiots pretend to read the Book; albeit, with no
or little understanding.
Let's turn back to the definition of maRQuM, "whose
letters are dotted." Why? Archeological evidence
shows that the letters of the early manuscripts were
mostly un-dotted. |
There are examples of very early
quranic manuscripts that are fully dotted. So Edip's
"mostly" is meaningless because his argument is completely
demolished by even one early manuscript that is dotted.
Also, the great reading itself tells us that it is dotted as
he admits below.
|
Edip Yuksel wrote: |
|
Then, why the Quran should describe itself with dotted
letters? |
As a translator, Edip should try to
put the closest meaning from Classical Arabic dictionaries,
which he admits is "dotted" and let the reader reach his own
conclusion about why "dotted" is used based on the evidence
instead of answering the question with his own wild
speculations based on preconceptions. A translator should
not be "advertising" a so-called miracle and instead should
be closely reporting what is being said.
The answer to Edip's question is
because we do have examples of early manuscripts that are
fully dotted. Also, as I showed above, even mundane everyday
texts such as business letters were fully dotted to reduce
ambiguity.
|
Edip Yuksel wrote: |
|
The answer is in Abjad, or Gematria. We know that
during the revelation of the Quran, like their
contemporary Romans, Arabs were using Arabic alphabet
letters in sequence of ABJD to represent numbers.
|
The Hebrew Abjad (Aleph, Bet, Gimmel,
Dalet) was used to represent numerals but there is zero
evidence that Arabic was used in this manner. Hence, what
Edip are saying is nothing more than baseless speculation.
In fact, the proper name "Gematria" that he uses is the name
for Hebrew Numerology which Jewish Rabbis practiced
extensively. They too considered the number 19 sacred. As
truly stated in 74:31, the count of 19 has ONLY been a "fitna"/trial/affliction.
This is true not just for modern followers of Dr. Khalifa
but throughout history. For example, the Babis were obsessed
with the number 19 long before Edip was born and so were the
Hebrew Rabbis. Even Christians are obsessed with it and they
prove through similar Gematria numerology as the one Edip
uses that 19 symbolizes their idol Virgin Mary!
Moreover, Edip is demonstrating his
ignorance of the fact that the Roman numerals do not use an
Alphabetic numeral system like the Hebrew inspired Code-19
system. The Roman numerals use mixed tallies and alphabets.
An example of a tally system is: I for one, II for two, and
III for three.
The fact is that we never see pre-quranic
inscriptions that use Arabic alphabets as numerals. On the
other hand, we see plenty of pre-quranic inscriptions that
show that pre-quranic Arabs used a type of tally system.
Their system was clearly a base-10 system because one can
see that while the symbols for 1 to 9 are mostly simple
vertical tally lines, the one for ten changes to a curve or
a horizontal line with a dot. This is significant in light
of the fact that we see a same base-10 system in the great
reading where "completing the count" can be clearly seen as
counting ten.
|
Edip Yuksel wrote: |
|
When they used letters text they usually did not need
to dot the letters since the peculiar combination and
the context would narrow down the alternatives
dramatically. But to represent numbers they HAD TO DOT
THE LETTERS. Otherwise, none could differentiate the
number 2 from 10, 50, 400, or 500. None could
differentiate 8 from 600, 70 from 1000, etc. Thus,
dotting the letters was not essential for prose or
poetry, but essential for representing numbers. Thus,
the word RaQaM means digits, and maRQuM means
DIGITIZED, NUMBERED, or NUMERICALLY STRUCTURED.
|
The above is pure speculation for
which Edip has zero evidence. There are no pre-quranic
inscriptions showing dotted letters used as numbers. On the
contrary, as Edip admitted earlier and as the evidence I
provided shows, we can see mundane pre-quranic inscriptions
where dots are used. Moreover, we see that pre-quranic
inscriptions use a base-10 tally system for numbers and not
a letter-based system like that of Hebrew.
In fact, the Classical Arabic
dictionary meanings match with both the archeological
evidence and modern Arabic much better than Edip's
speculation. As presented earlier, archeological evidence
shows that pre-quranic Arabs used base-10 tallies that
consisted mostly of inscribed parallel vertical lines or
horizontal lines with dots. Thus, the meanings of "marqum"
as "recorded/inscribed", "lined" and "dotted" converge and
explain how in modern Arabic the word evolved from the three
older meanings to have something to do with numbers. On the
other hand, Edip's forced meaning doesn't explain how the
other meanings relate and is only based on speculation about
"dotted".
|
Edip Yuksel wrote: |
There is another verse where a derivative of the word
RaQaMa is used. Verse 18:9 is about the young
monotheists who escaped from he oppression of their
people and were put in sleep in a cave for 300+9
years. The verse describes them with expression, "ashab
ul-kahfi wal-raqym" (people of the cave and numbers.)
The following verses inform us about a debate
regarding numbers. The allegorical language is similar
to of those in chapter 74 and it implies a wondrous
mathematical sign yet to be discovered. I quote from
Progressive Muslims translation and highlighted some
words relevant to our discussion.
"Did you perceive that the dwellers of the cave and
the digits/numbers (RaQyM) related were of Our
wondrous signs?" (18:9)
"They will Say: 'Three, the fourth is their dog.' And
they Say: 'Five, the sixth is their dog,' guessing at
what they do not know. And they Say: 'Seven, and the
eighth is their dog.' Say: 'My Lord is fully aware of
their number (Eddah), none know them except for a
few.' So do not debate in them except with evidence,
and do not seek information regarding them from
anyone. And do not say of anything: 'I will do this
tomorrow.' 'Except if God wills.' And remember your
Lord if you forget and Say: 'Perhaps my Lord will
guide me to what is nearer to this in wisdom.' And
they remained in their cave for three hundred years,
and increased by nine. Say: 'God is fully aware how
long they remained, to Him is the unseen of heavens
and Earth, He sees and hears. They do not have besides
Him any ally, nor does He share in His judgment with
anyone.' And recite what has been inspired to you from
your Lord's Scripture, there is no changing His words,
and you will not find besides Him any refuge."
(18:22-27). |
Edip, firstly the statement
"dwellers of the cave and the digits/numbers" is pure
nonsense. How can one dwell in the digits/numbers? You are
obviously rushing to link 18:9 to your Code 19 without
properly thinking about whether things make sense or not.
Moreover, if one reads the sign in
18:9-26, one can clearly see that OTHER PEOPLE at the time
of the prophet were discussing the matter and speculating
about the story. How did those other people find out about
those "companions of the cave"? They must have known about
it from a record that tells their story. We also hear in
18:21 that there was some kind of shrine built to
commemorate them. As usual for this kind of shrine, in all
likelihood it had an inscription talking about the story. So
here "raqim" talks about a neatly lined inscription. "The
people of the cave and the inscription" makes a lot more
sense than "the people of the cave and the numbers", fits in
the context and is consistent with the clear Classical
Arabic meaning. The only reason why anyone would need to
doubt the Classical Arabic dictionary meaning is if
something doesn't make sense or doesn't fit in the context.
|
Edip Yuksel wrote: |
Under the subtitle "More mistranslation," Ayman reacts
to the neutral word PHENOMENON in our translation of
46:10. He does not suggest any other word as reference
of "similar."
Phenomenon does not mean numerical sign or code 19.
However, in the context it could refer to it.
Ayman has problem with any implication of divine sign,
that is extraordinary, that is great, that is
phenomenal. He wants to reduce the Quran to another
reading book, with an empty word "great" attached to
it. A mere lip-service. Whenever, a great feature of
that book is mentioned Ayman will be there to fight
against it; by hook or crook. Let me present the verse
in discussion without the word PHENOMENON. The
following argument is prophetic, since it happened in
the past, present, and will happen in the future. I am
quoting from the Progressive Muslims translation.
|
My objection was to Code-19
promoters using 46:10 as proof of their "precise
mathematical miracle". It is another one of their endless
circular arguments. 46:10 talks about the "phenomenon" of
Code-19 because there is a Code-19 miracle in the great
reading and the proof that Code-19 is a miracle is that
46:10 talks about it.
|
Edip Yuksel wrote: |
I added the word SIGN in verse 46:7 since the word
AYAAT is the plural of AYAT (sign/miracle) and in the
context the plural form refers to the divine signs in
revelation.
"And when Our clear signs/revelations are recited to
them, those who rejected said of the truth that came
to them: 'This is evidently magic!' |
I am not sure what you mean here.
The word "ayat"/signs is ALREADY in 46:7. You didn't do us
any favors and "add" anything.
|
Edip Yuksel wrote: |
"Or do they Say: 'He fabricated this!' Say: 'If I
fabricated this, then you cannot protect me at all
from God. He is fully aware of what you say. He
suffices as a witness between me and you. He is the
Forgiver, the Merciful.'
"Say: 'I am no different from the other messengers,
nor do I know what will happen to me or to you. I only
follow what is inspired to me. I am no more than a
clear warner'
"Say: 'Do you see that if it were from God, and you
rejected it, and a witness from the Children of Israel
testified to its similarity, and he has believed,
while you have turned arrogant? Surely, God does not
guide the wicked people.'
"And those who had rejected said regarding those who
had believed: 'If it were any good, they would not
have beaten us to it.' And when they are not able to
be guided by it, they will Say: 'This is an old
fabrication!'
"And before this was the Scripture of Moses, as a role
model and a mercy. And this is an authenticating
Scripture, in an Arabic tongue, to warn those who
transgressed, and to give good news to the righteous."
(46:7-12) |
OK. I give you credit. This is a
better translation than what you previously provided.
|
Edip Yuksel wrote: |
|
He is the one who is trying hard to distance the Quran
from its prophecy of "On it is Nineteen." Since he
cannot accuse Rabbi
Judah
of conspiring with us, he prefers to stay silent
regarding the discovery of code 19 in the Bible by
someone from Children of Israel. Like all the
extraordinary evidences, he perhaps considers this
another coincidence. (Here is an idea for Ayman and
his target audience: you can always accuse us for
conspiring with the Jewish Rabbi. Sunnis and Shiites
would jump on to this allegation with joy!) |
Actually, even the Christians
discovered a Code 19 in the Bible that justifies taking the
Virgin Mary as a sacred idol. The fact is that the Bible
that Edip has is as false as the book of Hadiths. Moreover,
Edip doesn't tell you how much guidance and extra
understanding Jewish Rabbis and Christians got as a result
of their "extraordinary evidences". Why doesn't he? Because
they got exactly the same guidance and extra understanding
that 19ers got as a result of their extraordinary
"evidences" (or should we say "claims"): A big extraordinary
ZERO.
|
Edip Yuksel wrote: |
|
You can usually learn how desperate is the critic by
looking how many times he or she is dancing on splits
of hair. Here, Ayman is harping on an inexact choice
of a word that is very closely related to the original
one. Signs, in the context of the Quran are
intellectual, numerical, natural, and spiritual
evidences that guide a person to recognize God's
message and reform his mind and action accordingly.
Thus, Quranic signs prove the authenticity of the
divine message. Since, the verses of the Quran contain
intellectual, numerical, natural, and spiritual
evidence they prove themselves; they are unique, they
are self-testifying evidences. That's why the verses
of the Quran are referred by the Quran with the plural
AYAAT. The Quran never uses the word ABYAT for the
verses or numbered sentences of the Quran.
|
What splitting hairs? The words "ayat"/signs
and "abyat"/verses are two completely different words.
Firstly, unlike poetry the great reading is not in "verse"
form. This is indisputable. As for "numbered sentences",
since you looked as early quranic manuscript you should know
very well that those numbers were not part of the original
text but were added long after the fact for the purpose of
ease of reference. So this is also indisputable.
|
Edip Yuksel wrote: |
|
It is interesting to see Ayman trying so hard not to
use the word AYAAT or VERSE in his references to the
verses or Ayaat of the Quran. He just uses numbers to
refer to the NAMELESS UNITS of the Quran. Though, this
idiosyncratic treatment emanates from Ayman's
imaginary linguistic theories, I like it. Numbers are
delicious! Hopefully, Ayman one day will appreciate
the numerically designed message. |
Yes, the numbers refer to arbitrary
"nameless units" of the great reading. You can't say that
they refer to "abyat/verses" because the great reading is
not poetry. You also can't say that they refer to "numbered
sentences" because the numbering is a modern device and many
are not even sentences but can be several sentences or can
even be meaningless half sentences. This is in line with the
fact that the number schema was done purely for ease of
reference and took mainly aesthetic reasons into account.
|
Edip Yuksel wrote: |
|
Ayman, as it seems, have not read my response
carefully. I argued that since the singular word AYAT
(sign/miracle) was never used as a reference to the
literal statements of the Quran, one verse or
statement cannot be considered a sign or miraculous. I
even provided an example for this claim. Ayman,
repeats my position for an unrelated argument. He
conveniently collapses two different words, sign and
guidance, into one, while a little study of the
Quran will inform the reader that AYAT is used
consistently to denote miracles. Yes, miracles are
obviously different then guidance, since not all those
who are given miracles are guided by those miracles.
|
Had Edip "studied a little" of the
great reading, he would not have made such clearly false
statements. For example, 16:12 talks about the night, the
day, the sun, the moon, and the stars as being "AYAT"
(plural). Of course all those cosmic phenomena are signs NOT
miracles. The problem is that Edip is trying to force the
meaning of miracles (in Arabic: "mu3jizat") on the word
signs/"ayat". The fact that "mu3jizat" and not "ayat" is the
Arabic term that closely means "miracles" is indisputable.
|
Edip Yuksel wrote: |
Ayman hides the difference in sentence structure of
24:1 with those that come with initials. Let's read
the translation of both verses.
"A.L.R., these are the AYAAT (signs/miracles) of the
Scripture of wisdom." (10:1)
"A chapter which We have sent down and decreed as law,
and We have sent down in it clear AYAAT (signs,
revelations) that you may remember." (24:1)
The 24:1 is not just a mere reference, but a
descriptive reference. There is a difference between
saying "these are statements" and "these are
unambiguous statements so that you take heed." The
first one is dull and redundant, but the second one is
fine and necessary.
Another distortion or misrepresentation! In my
previous response, I did not argue for "these" but for
"these are signs." Yes, let me repeat again so that
Ayman will not try to distort the facts and my words
in order to keep himself and his audience blind to the
mathematical miracle: The expression "Tilka ayaat"
(these are signs) occurs in 8 verses, and in all of
them with conjunction of initial letters. The irony
is, from his first attack on, Ayman accused us of
employing tricks and twisting the meaning of words,
while in reality it is him who have made it as his
method of rejection of God's signs. |
Edip should try to get the correct
meaning by considering all the occurrences in the great
reading and not just a few of them. He complains about evil
trickster me hiding the structure so let's look together at
the structure of 10:1:
Alr - pointing device - "ayat" - of
the book - description of book
Let's also look at the structure of
2:1-2:
Alm - pointing device - the book -
description of the book
Finally, let's look at the structure
of 11:1:
Alr - "ayat" of the book - action
that affects the description of the book
It is pretty clear from the
structure that the main subject in all of the above is the
book. Now let's look beyond structure and try to consider
the meaning by considering all of the information together.
When we look at 10:1 and 11:1, we see that 11:1 actually
explains 10:1. In 10:1 we are told about the signs of the
book of wisdom/judgment. In 11:1 we are told that the book's
signs were made wise/judging and detailed by the
Wise/Judicial and Expert. That is how it became the "book of
wisdom/judgment" in 10:1. Clearly, when taking this approach
of considering all the relevant information, then the word "ayat"
in 10:1 cannot be pointing to "alr" but is pointing to the
book in our possession.
2. "Doctors who smoke" syndrome
|
Edip Yuksel wrote: |
I already listed the reasons why at this time
mathematicians do not show interest in dealing with
code 19. Without refuting my reasons, Ayman repeats
his demand, this time with more elaboration. He
pretends to engage in debate, yet he is entertaining
himself with his monologues.
Would Ayman believe in code 19 if it was published in
a peer-reviewed journal? |
Yes, if it is published in a
scientific journal, then I would believe your labeling of
Code 19 as "scientific/mathematical" and not as mere
"numerology" tricks.
|
Edip Yuksel wrote: |
|
Which journal would be satisfactory? How many
journals? |
Any distinguished scientific
journal, preferably dealing with the subjects of mathematics
and statistics. Here are some examples:
Advances in Applied Mathematics
Advances in Mathematics
Annals of Mathematical Logic
Applied Mathematical Modeling
Applied Mathematics and Computation
Applied Mathematics Letters
Applied Numerical Mathematics
Bulletin des Sciences Mathématiques
(Sister Marie would like this one)
Computers & Mathematics with
Applications
Discrete Applied Mathematics
European Journal of Combinatorics
etc...
I am sometimes called upon to
referee papers for a few journals in the area of mathematics
(not the ones that I listed though). If I get a paper on
Code 19 I will ask the same questions about methodology that
I asked you here and I am sure most of my peers will. So it
is better that you answer here and save yourself a polite
rejection letter from the editorial staff.
|
Edip Yuksel wrote: |
|
Without providing these specifics, whatever happens,
Ayman will find another excuse to reject one of the
greatest divine signs. If someone finds so many
excuses to reject the prophecy of chapter 74, the
Hidden, and its amazing fulfillment, that person is
able to blind himself to journal articles, to angles
coming down from the sky. |
I provided the specifics. I will be
happy to dig out the correspondence address of the journals
if you want.
|
Edip Yuksel wrote: |
|
Furthermore, Ayman confuses undesired addiction to
intellectual conviction. How in the world, one can
liken a mathematician who is intellectually convinced
about the existence of a mathematical pattern in a
book to the doctor who smokes? It can only be possible
if one is blinded by the smoke of hell, | | | |